Shot across the bow signaling the diesel invasion of America is about to begin.

Discussion in 'Diesel powered automobiles' started by xcel, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    Feathered tires. They were not sport fasing it were they. :)
  2. hobbit

    hobbit He who posts articles

    This is getting me kinda curious about a meta-question.
    Wayne, how are you managing to review all these vehicles?
    Is there an organization behind this?
  3. ILAveo

    ILAveo Well-Known Member

    At the risk of sounding stupid (never stopped me before), this really trivial thing is bugging me--Where are the back door handles? I don't see them in the pictures; it makes the car's lines look a lot cleaner.
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jeff:

    ___About your earlier question(s). I have no idea about the binders in an E-Stop and you know me, that is the last thing I would be trying out ;) The other questions. The review agreement I signed for this vehicle states I cannot allow others to drive it including family. If I had a week off, I would be glad to drive her down to your locale so you and Randall could have a peek but I unfortunately do not :( About those tires … My 95K mile Michelins look better then these with 4K + on them now!

    ___Al, owning CleanMPG, being a member of the APA for the past two years and writing up most of the articles, Autoshow press events, reviews and some news, (Eric led me down the proper path for all of this) here allows some rather unique access including the ability to test new vehicles for a week at a time with those I have setup so far. The Prius’ came from Cheryl because I could not wait for the 08’s from Toyota. I wanted to test a Prius-I for quite some time but knew of nobody that owned one other then Cheryl and Doug (DAS). Doug lives a little bit too far away but the future Toyota’s will come from Toyota themselves. The European iCDTi came through a Turbo-diesel ride and drive presentation sponsored by the APA and Honeywell Technologies in Detroit a few months ago. Driving out to Detroit every few months sucks but there are some of the best new automobile technology presentations available there. The car handling company is the one I was in direct contact with and God bless Ryan for allowing me the opportunity to drive the premier turbo-diesel in the world for a week is all I have to say!

    ___For the LA Autoshow Press event, Rich and I are planning on driving Route 66 from just south of Chicago to LA. We are working on taking a European sourced BMW 330D out for that week long excursion. The larger and even more performance oriented diesel review would be a great read with two hypermilers behind the wheel driving the mother road for maximum FE but there are no guarantees. We might be driving a TCH, an FEH or maybe just the Accord?

    ___ILAveo, they are in the black recesses. Here is a pic of the handles up close and the original from which it came.

    Rear door handle.

    Honda Civic iCDTi – in the drive side profile.​

    ___Good Luck

  5. 2TonJellyBean

    2TonJellyBean Well-Known Member

    Front Seat Legroom?

    Excellent review... so much covered, but I didn't see anything on legroom. Is it better than your Accord or better yet in the same league as the XR4?
  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi 2TonJellyBean:

    ___This is more like an iCDTi blog then a review. The Accord has more leg room front and rear but it’s the drivers ergonomics that are better in this Civic then the Accord. There is enough room for maybe a 6’-5” individual with the seat all the way back and that should be plenty. It is narrower then the Accord by a way as well.

    I have a lot to add for the full-blown review ;)

    ___Mr. Bill, oh boy rowing the gears without fear of an accidental shift into R shift makes this thing a lot more fun now :D Thank you very much!

    ___I think the following needs little in the way of explanation and especially given the conditions :rolleyes:

    10 km of this was running at idle in 6th gear yielding ~ 2.7. I started a P&G routine afterwards and the numbers went through the roof! This included one 65 mph – 1 mile long blast as there are two places where I have to run the 65 mph limited Interstate to cross (2) rivers. 5 -15 mph headwind but fortunately, it had not started raining yet. I cannot wait to try this again tomorrow afternoon with no experimenting for the first 25% of the drive ;)

    Not the best pic but it shows the (6) ECO lights all lit, the iFCD at 2L/100 km, the radio info display, temp setting at Lo with fan maxxed in a hellacious downpour at 53 mph.

    3:30 minutes with 25 miles of horrid stop and crawl. 12 – 21 degrees C with 5 – 15 mph headwind and a heavy downpour over ~ 55 km of this drive. Held onto 2.4 until O’Hare but the rain finally took its toll :(

    ___Good Luck

  7. 2TonJellyBean

    2TonJellyBean Well-Known Member

    Thanks... I was holding out hope that when we eventually replace our Accord it will be with something that has more legroom. My '85 Civic was great for my legs and I also love all the legroom in the 2003-2004 Civic SiRs that came here from the UK with the 2 litre engines.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2007
  8. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    So, can you get under 2? ;)

    This car just sounds sweeter and SWEETER! :D

    So... any thought to that video podcast we suggested a while back? :bananajump:

    Oh, and I just happen to be exactly 6'5" tall. :D :D :D
  9. 2TonJellyBean

    2TonJellyBean Well-Known Member

    You know Sean, Hyundai could probably hit one right out of the park if they stuck the new 3 litre V6 diesel / 6 speed auto that they are developing for the European VeraCruz into the North American VeraCruz, Azera, Sonata and Santa Fe.

    The Santa Fe would be incredible with it for a 6'5 guy. I'm taller, mostly legs and it is great for space - a rare treat to actually fit nicely into a car. Joel Piaskowski's last design was the Buick Lucerne, but his Hyundai studio in California did a great job on building the Santa Fe to fit those of us who used to fit in cars until safety equipment, stuffing and interior styling took away our folding spaces. The Santa Fe with the 3 litre would have opened my wallet much wider - and I'd have been happy to pay the premium if they're listening.

    Everywhere other than Canada and the USA offers the 2.2 litre CRD on the Santa Fe although even with a manual it is leisurely in many people's opinions with a 0-60 or around 12 seconds. Great torque and economy... some day they'll arrive.

    I hope...
  10. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    Hi, 2TJB!! I've driven a few Santa Fe's and until the most recent one I found they actually had less space for the driver than my '02 Elantra. The new one is pretty nice but I just can't seem to get excited about SUVs and the numbers they put out? I tend to go for the smallest car I can fit in reasonably for maneuverability and economy reasons.

    What sorts of numbers is this 3ltr putting out? I'm sure the 6spd auto helps out nicely...
  11. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    Wow! This is the car I've been most excited about in years! Wayne, those numbers are amazing! Besides, it looks great!
  12. 2TonJellyBean

    2TonJellyBean Well-Known Member

    Nissan is talking about a U.S. Maxima diesel for 2010

    ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

    Right Lane, the Santa Fe was the smallest vehicle I fit in except the Rabbit and it's Mexican built 2.5 litre 5 cylinder wasn't exactly frugal either. The Vibe/Matrix was close to a fit.

    Hyundai is supposed to have this in the VeraCruz by 2010 at the latest, but they could stick one in my SF today if they want to. ;-)

    I'm not at all sure what the new 3 litre V6 will be capable of mileage wise - it really depends what it goes into and it will be about 240 hp but hopefully the electronic turbo control allows it great flexibility for economy as well. The press on it is interesting.
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    ___A few more pics.

    ___She is spec’ed for 13.2 gallons but held 13.935. I guess there is no vapor recovery HW since diesel does not evaporate like gasoline?

    2.8L/100 km after 1,890.3 km - 1,174.6 miles at 84.0 mpg per the FCD with 84.3 mpg calculated top off to top off.

    After her fill at the B20 Biodiesel pump.

    Annoying Low Fuel graphic inside the FCD and alongside the Empty at (0) Fuel gauge. Darn thing was popping up every time I cycled the FCD’s and info screens.

    Yet another warning about low fuel. She went 175 miles beyond the low fuel light and 185 km beyond 0 DTE per the OEM FCD.

    These will show up as News pics sometime :rolleyes:

    ___A little warning about running a Diesel to fuel starve. Be prepared to pull a fuel line coupling to bleed the air build up and/or prime the low pressure fuel tank pump. Guess what I spent a portion of my afternoon doing :(


    ___Good Luck

    Last edited: Sep 13, 2007
  14. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    Wayne - I'm very jealous. Hopefully I'll be able to sample this engine for myself in a couple years. How are the sound levels out of that engine? I was in Europe for a couple weeks a month ago and kept my eyes and ears open but never saw an i-CTDi while I was walking around. BMW's and even the cheap French diesels were far quieter than any VW TDI I've encountered though so I imagine the Honda will be similar? A video with you talking while the engine is on would be great if you have the time and resources.

    Has anybody mentioned any concerns to you about the turbo FAS'ing at higher speeds? Diesels have lower exhaust gas temperatures than gas engines but people in the know with TDI's still seem to recommend a minute or two of city speed driving after coming off highways before shutting the engine town, in order to let the turbo cool.

    I don't know why this is but modern diesel ECU's seem to be programmed to try to keep the engine from stalling when RPM's drop. My car does the same thing, it can be run through the gears to 5th without touching the accelerator. I wish gas cars could be programmed do the same.

    Regarding the weak HVAC system, try hitting the recirculate button if there is one. In my car, that seems to turn on a second fan and gives a good boost in airflow. That might be how things work in European cars for some reason. I don't think it would do much for your defrosting / defogging though.
  15. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    Neat! That is awfully darned close to a 1200mi tank!!! :eek: Wonder what Honda would say to that info???

    175mi is a really nice and long range before needing a pump. I like it! :D

    I've never run a car out of gas before and always wondered if there was anything you needed to do to prime it. I take it you've not needed to do this for the gasoline cars you've run dry? Any concerns about the fuel pumps themselves?

    Oh, and where is that waiting list again? ;)

    One more question -- this is probably just silly but I noticed in your fill pic at the top of this post that the fuel appeared dark BLUE?? Why is that? :confused:
  16. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    I am pretty sure diesel fuel pumps are designed to use the natural lubricity that diesel fuel has so it's probably not good for the pump to run without fuel. The engine will likely stall soon afterwards though so damage would be limited by my guess -- but others may have more insight into this than me.

    Diesel fuel seems to come in an array of interesting colors. I've seen blue, green, and yellowish like gasoline. I have no idea why it's like that.
  17. ILAveo

    ILAveo Well-Known Member

    Diesel is dyed depending on the road tax (at least in IL/IA). Green for road tax paid, red for off-road/farm diesel that's not road taxed, jet fuel (much like diesel and burns OK in diesel engines) undyed and not road taxed. Big fines are assessed if you're caught on the road without the right dye in your tank. It also helps you figure out which storage tank is the leaker. ;) I've never paid attention to see if biodiesel is dyed a different color, but I think the color in the picture might be a little off...
  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Sefton:

    ___The iCDTi is very quiet from the outside although I only let it run for less then 2 minutes when priming the low pressure fuel pump yesterday. You can easily have a standard conversation with it idling in the background. Not as quiet as a gas only vehicle given you cannot hear some of those idling even when they are running, but quiet enough not to have to raise you voice when talking to someone standing right next to the iCDTi. From inside, the only time you hear the 2.2L is during an accel from very low RPM’s when she clatter’s a touch. At speed, you don’t hear her at all.

    ___FAS’ing from any speed with a TDI may be a no-no given it is in at least the 04 Jetta TDI manual to let it idle for a 30 or so seconds. I was speaking to a technology lead of Honeywell about the latest Euro diesel turbo’s and how the average driver treats them. Do they shut them down when they arrive home or do they let the turbo spool down while idling for a few seconds first? He said everyone he knows including him and his wife just shut them down and Honeywell was not having warranty issues with the 7.5 million they have on the road overseas.

    ___Strange about the ability to bring the diesels all the way up through the gears while idling, isn’t it? I can bring her up through 6th and never touch the accelerator although that is not the most efficient way to bring her up to temp or for MAX FE in my limited experience.

    ___The Fan while in recirc does indeed add a whole lot more CFM but its recirc and that is the last thing I would be using other then if I were running A/C :( Thank you for the tip!

    ___Sean, I only run the first tanks dry to come up with a total tank cap, how many gallons are left at the low fuel light or low fuel warning initiation, ~how far you can drive at a given FE before you run dry nad to calibrate the OEM FCD’s or a SG-II. I just missed a hill top and lost the prime with one more start trying to get over the crest less then 2 blocks from the station. The 1.999 gallon of B20 in the fuel container did not allow the prime so I pushed her into the stations lot and topped her off. It still wasn’t enough :( A local mechanic had a crescent wrench and we pulled a fuel coupling into the common rail. Once that thing was solid, connected her back up and she was good as new. I would never run without fuel on the pack in a hybrid or try and accelerate once she hits starve in a diesel or non-hybrid gasser today. There is just no point but I missed that short hill and got stupid :(

    ___The first diesel fill was in Birmingham, MI. from a Sunoco. It was straight Diesel #2 with a medium blue color. The B20 I filled her up with yesterday had a slight green and blue tint to it.

    ___ILAveo, yup. The red dyed non-road taxed diesel stuff (low sulfur heating oil) is what some of the F-250 and larger PowerStroke types are taking their chances with given what I know about it today ;)

    ___A nice commute home tonight … 21 – 26 degrees C with a 5 – 10 mph tail wind yielded the following.

    Not quite to the Insight level at MAX FE but she is getting closer. 138.3 mpg after 23 miles from the training center to the Interstate.

    112.0 mpg for the drive home this evening.

    This last tank is still holding at 94.x mpg’s after 294 miles.​

    ___Good Luck

  19. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    So what do you think us mere mortals could do with it on a mostly DWL-type highway cycle? 70mpg? 75? I know it's a completely different type of animal so I'm curious as to how it stacks up to the gasser hybrids that we all know and love.
  20. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    What is your ave. mph Wayne?

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