Interesting email survey sent to Hyundai owners - Series hybrid?

Discussion in 'General' started by MaxxMPG, Jan 17, 2024.

  1. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    An email survey arrived today with questions about a possible new powertrain that is supposedly under consideration.

    They called it "Powertrain S", and what they described sounds to me like electric propulsion with a gas-fired range extender and smaller battery than a pure BEV. They were asking about buyers' expectations and whether they'd consider this new idea versus ICE or HEV or PHEV or BEV. They included potential range and MPG/MPGe numbers as well as how much more each option costs relative to the ordinary ICE version.

    The numbers they were quoting made me think that the vehicle in mind was a compact crossover - like a Tucson (which already covers ICE/HEV/PHEV) in regards to fuel economy and pricing.

    From what I have seen in the past, I can confidently say that when they send these surveys out, they already have well-sorted test mules racing around a private track somewhere in South Korea and/or California City.

    If I had to guess, I'd say they are seeing the collapse of hydrogen in the US and are looking at how to make the Nexo sellable in more than one or two cities in southern California. Just swap in a little Kappa 1 liter three-banger in place of the fuel cell, keep the 40kwh battery pack, add a 6 or 7 gallon gas tank in place of the hydrogen cylinder, and sell 'em in all 50 states. Or at least the CARB states. It would be a good way to leverage all the engineering work and platform development, and earn some cash from an existing model. Honda already did that with the Clarity.

    For pricing, they showed:
    HEV $1000 more than ICE
    PHEV $5000 more than ICE
    (new "S") $7000 more than ICE
    BEV $9000 more than ICE

    Squint a little at the proposed figures and it looks like they're thinking of Ioniq 5 for BEV and then the Tucson for the ICE/HEV/PHEV, based on the cost span and the specifications. That would put the series-PHEV (technically an EREV) Pseudo-Tucson right around $40k, reasonably equipped. And if it were to meet the CleanPass HOV requirements, it would be an interesting option for commuters. They mentioned VTL/VTH without being too specific, so the new baby could be used as a home power source - just like the Ioniq line.

    It sounds like it's a good choice for commuters, with the size and form factor that the bulk of the current buyers are shopping for, and in a price range that people can fit into the budget.
     
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  2. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Sounds like what Hybrids should have been from the beginning(smaller gas tank tho). Therefore, Toyota wouldn't be having such a hard time transitioning to full batteries. :rolleyes::p
     
    xcel likes this.
  3. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Sent an email to my Hyundai salesman this morning.
    About a 2023 Elantra HEV Blue.
     
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  4. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I wonder how efficient that might be running on range extender at 60 MPH.
    I need a car to take interstate trips.
     
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  5. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    We know from other EREV options - the Chevrolet Volt and BMW i3 - that they don't do as well on the highway as pure hybrids although the number is higher than the gas-only alternative. Panning that out to a Tucson-sized cute-ute, I would figure right around 38-40mpg highway and probably 150 to 200 miles on battery before the generator wakes up, assuming they use the Nexo-sized battery.

    The survey did list highway fuel economy as a compromise with Powertrain-S. And in the same breath, they described this option as perfect for people who wanted EV for daily driver but had limited charging options and wanted or needed the freedom to take longer trips with fast refueling at gas stations. The lower highway fuel economy is a trade-off for many more "local" miles - within 80 miles of home - driven at zero emissions.

    Powertrain-S would be perfect for me, where weekly commutes could be all-electric, assuming I can find an open charger that works and the temperature is over 20F. And I simply add some gas and I'm ready for the longer interstate trips, or for when the temperature is under 20F and the public chargers go dead.

    Hyundai has been listening to customers who are saying 'no' to the Ioniq options because there are no practical options for charging them, and they're not suitable for long trips. The EREV is a practical alternative, and we'll see how well they mitigate the disadvantages and hopefully present a product that does everything the PHEV does, with a much longer AER, and bring it with a pricetag that is within the means of the average family.
     
  6. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    This in between E-REV thing will be at a cost disadvantage to any EV coming in a couple of years with smaller than current range-topping batteries and compatibility with a NACs plug. I don't see it selling well. Will it compete with a Volvo EX30 at $35k? That lower cost range is going to have a real battle.

    Ioniq EVs are fine now on trips and fast charging and very shortly, more access to Tesla Superchargers. They just have to find a way to make them less costly and eligible for the TAX incentives. The credit at purchase time still hasn't taken off because the dealerships have to register with the feds. (add: ..not that Hyundai EVs would be eligible, though I wonder if people are taking advantage of the leases which can be eligible. I did notice that some current for-sale EVs from Kia/Hyundai have up to the $7500 as a sales incentive)
     
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  7. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Tucson-sized to me ain't cute. MPG & short range is why I'm holding out for a BEV....that & money shortage. 150-200 miles from full to empty battery isn't what the battery needs, either.
     
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  8. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Nothin' cute about a ute.
     
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  9. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    Not even two utes in a mint green 1964 Skylark convertible with size 70R14 tires and no positraction?!
    If you never saw the movie My Cousin Vinny, disregard the remark.
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    I've always liked the series hybrid range extender idea. A typical hybrid can beat it in highway efficiency, but daily EV miles means a large reduction in overall gas use. Enough that the cost renewable ICE fuels can become acceptable.

    While the price of commuter range BEVs will drop and be competitive, the charging network still needs to grow to support travel everywhere. Some people will still balk at waiting to charge. Then some uses just aren't fully supported by a BEV.
     
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  11. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I loved My Cousin Vinny !
    The late Great Fred Gwynne.
     
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  12. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    The reason I shared the "what if" scenario of "Powertrain S" is that they appear to be exploring all possible options for electrification. I agree with you completely that the series hybrid with a big battery and range extender is a great option for people who have a reasonable daily commute but need to be able to cover longer distances. Where this type of vehicle will suffer is probably going to be in online "user reviews" where owners will b*tch about how much gas the car uses while not mentioning that they never plug it in. There were Volt owners over the years who just drove the car running on gas and didn't even know where the charge cord was located. For these people, they need to get a simple hybrid.
    "Powertrain S" works for a measurable slice of the driving public, including people like me. We're drivers who wouldn't mind the EV commute but live in an area where public chargers are few, and only a subset of those few are online and functional at any given time. And temperatures in the area are low enough to brick the chargers so the car ends up dead in the parking lot until the temperature goes back up, as midwest EV owners are finding out. Being able to cover almost all miles on electric, and building a recharge event into the calendar once a week, is a valid option.
    The EV market is currently moribund, as anyone who wants an EV already went out and bought one. Outside of Tesla, there is nearly a one year supply of these things sitting on dealer lots, costing dealers millions in floorplan costs. People are buying up all the gas cars they can find, for fear they won't be available in a few years. As of this morning, Caredge shows over 24k Mach-E Mustangs sitting on lots, and over 21k of the H/K electrics, spread over the three current model names. The local dealers here are turning away allocations of electric cars because there is no space to park them and little hope of selling them, without serious incentives to make them cheaper than anything else. Hyundai just announced $7500 off their EVs this January to offset the loss of the tax credit. That should help. But hearing that they total out when the battery is damaged due to a scratch in the undercarriage is causing buyers to run away as fast.
    Seeing the EV market sputter, and asking the people who actually buy new cars what they need for daily transportation is likely causing the marketing and engineering teams to start thinking that "more is better" in available powertrain technologies and configurations. It will be interesting to visit a dealer in a couple of years and see HEV, PHEV, EREV and BEV all parked in the same showroom. Bring 'em on and let the buying public vote with their bank accounts.
     
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  13. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    The BMW i3 (with range extender for those who travel) is/was a great option. I still see some out there for those in the used market. Excellent deals with added tax incentives now.
     
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  14. litesong

    litesong litesong

    I saw My Cousin Vinny a bunch of times. George on Seinfeld, also saw My Cousin Vinny a bunch of times. Personally, I loved the 1963 Pontiac Tempest best.....even tho it had mechanical problems. Wonder if the Tempest could have taken 195x65x15 inch or 205x65x15 inch wheels & tires?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2024
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  15. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Of course not. The "U" stands for "Ugly," contrary to popular belief.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Things tend to break when it gets really cold. How many ICE cars didn't start that day because the 12V could no longer turn the engine over at those temps? There are articles of gas pumps freezing up in the same weather event. Chargers did go down, but it was a minority of the ones in the field. This doesn't seem to be an issue in other cold locations. The solution is more chargers.

    People also need to read their owner's manuals. Some needed to charge as they didn't turn off features to reduce drain while parked at the airport for extended periods, and others were unaware a Tesla will spend time warming up the battery if it is too cold to charge.

    This because the manufacturers treat the battery data like the recipe to Dr Pepper or KFC. They don't let anyone see it. Repair shops can't directly check the battery data for potential issues after an accident. Leaving insurance companies afraid an EV with a scratched battery case will start a house fire.
     
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  17. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    I coined a new term, RIDE-SHARED. Like the familiar "ICED" referring to cars blocking EV chargers. That's pretty much what happened in Chicago and NYC.

    And it is true that the situation wouldn't have been as bad had the many drivers been educated in what they were driving.
     
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    A commenter elsewhere pointed out the gig drivers also charge even when not needed cause charging fees are cheaper than parking.
     
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  19. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    People will always find a way to game the system. You can't park at a gas pump to beat parking fees because others can see the pump isn't running full speed or running at all. They boot you out. That needs to happen to these gig drivers. They can't get away with blocking the few chargers that are out there and running.
     
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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    When I say they don't need, I mean they pull in with a relatively high SOC. It is charging when they don't need too vs. people stopping to get range to reach home that leave once the range reaches that point.
    Many of these chargers have parking or idle fees when the charging is finished. Those will hit the gig driver, but with the rate slow down when the battery hits 80%, they likely won't before the next gig comes in.
     
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