Toyota’s ‘Empact’ Vision

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Apr 23, 2023.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] Maybe it will help?

    Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – April 19, 2023

    2023 Lexus RZ450e


    Toyota is doubling down on “Mobility for All” with their latest program called “Empact” which is based on the combination of “environmental impact” and “empowering action”. The strategy focuses on access to charging, affordable mobility, and most importantly, reducing carbon emissions.

    Charging - Toyota is working with cities to identify locations for charging station deployment in order to serve PHEV and BEV owners more efficiently. Initially, the L2 and DCFC locations will include off-street or private parking and areas of higher population density including multi-family housing.

    Affordability – Similar to Tesla’s own proprietary network, Toyota will explore cost-effective L2 public charging deployment <-- A mistake imho, for greater acceptance of PHEV and BEVs. DCFCing can cost up to three times more than home L2 charging. On the affordable mobility front, Toyota will continue providing its portfolio of electrified vehicle options as part of the “Beyond Zero” vision, including four HEVs starting under $31,000 (Prius, Corolla, Camry, and Corolla Cross), two PHEVs (Prius and RAV4 Prime), and the all-electric Toyota bZ4X. Lexus also provides eight electrified vehicle options, including the all-electric RZ 450e. Toyota is looking at lowering the overall cost of its zero-emission rental vehicles for business or personal use.

    Emissions – Toyota is working with WattTime who recommends times to charge BEV and PHEVs when charging from the grid is forecasted to have lower carbon emissions or is likely to have a lower potential health impact over the long term. Toyota’s Clean Assist program allows U.S. customers with an active Remote Connect trial or subscription in California, to receive 100 percent of their charge matched with renewable electricity.

    All in, PHEV/BEV affordability is the largest hurdle with no Fed Tax credits for any of the Toyota/Lexus models. L2 for daily drivers is ok but having a vehicle camped on an L2 for 4 to 5-hours means it will be camped on the same overnight leaving no time for another owner to charge. On the emissions front, time of use (TOU) pricing is a great incentive for most to charge from home during the overnight hours. Will that idea move to a larger public charging infrastructure? Who knows?
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  2. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Your bias against L2 charging & for DCFC charging is not accurate. First) DCFC charging doesn’t stop at 3 times local electrical rates. Numbers of DCFC companies have often set up their electrical rate charges that rival the Miles per Dollar cost of gasoline (say 5 to 10 TIMES the going local electrical rates). Second) the continuing choice of said companies for complexity of payments have often led to inability to charge AND “mistakes” charging rates even higher….. & not just a little over 10 times. Third) DCFC companies know the efficiency of electric motors over ICE & guarantee that the efficiency monies that belong in the wallets of people who buy EVs, in truth, ends in the business portfolios of DCFC companies. Fourth) Demeaning people who use L2 for 5 hours AND not demeaning DCFC people who stress electrical infrastructure on DCFC at 300(+?)kW of power AND for 100kW-hrs of energy AND multiple times during the day, is showing a cultural & economic bias against the poor AND not holding people accountable who wantonly over-use electrical grids.

    My statements above will NOT convince anyone of the great peril to our electric infrastructure with the vast “suckings” of electrical power now available to DCFC users, so I will say I will do my best to use L2 only up to 3 hours per session.
    Ah, the heck with it. I will use L2 as long as I need to, so I can efficiently make it to another TIME CONSUMING L2 charger.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2023
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  3. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    litesong, no matter how I read the OP, I'm not seeing a lot of bias. Wayne does interjections here and there as he often does, but they're just his opinion and there is usually not a lot of bias in the comments unless you're reading through your own biased lenses.

    Relying on L2 charging for the great masses without almost 1:1 ratio of L2 chargers to BEV/PHEV is the issue. It is universally accepted, from what I have read anyway, that home charging is the way to go for most (x)EV driving. Toyota's addressing the issue in a way that seems highly impractical, as mentioned by Wayne. Toyota alone, cannot add more than a thimbleful to the bucket of L2 chargers needed. There are some countries that went the path of charge points along street parking. That's a good approach for cities preparing for the increasing numbers of EVs parking in the city. Multi-tenant buildings need to find ways to seed their parking spaces with L2 charge points, or L1 electrical outlets at a minimum to allow greater tenant EV charging.

    DCFC charging is required for long distance travel within the time constraints that "most" people have. ICE vehicles have the existing gas stations along almost all routes traveled. There are, or used to be exceptions. I don't know, as I have not road tripped in many, many years. I remember long ago on a family road trip, seeing signs like "last gas station for X miles". That's how it feels now for EV driving on many routes that do not have DCFC chargers of sufficient quantity and short enough intervals to cover all EV travelers' needs.

    Take the cost issue out of the mix, whether 3x or 10x the cost of filling up with gasoline. It is new technology needing investment and also a new means to profit for the DCFC owners. Time should bring these costs down to a more even level. There will be DCFC cost competition just like there is currently cost competition between gas stations, though that's not perfect since you have seen the great variance in gasoline prices in any given area. We've talked before about something like the Gasbuddy app, but for EVs, so that one can shop where to get a fast charge.

    The grid: ah, that's a "good" argument, *if* you don't fully understand or accept the need for DCFC. Technology exists for putting DCFC in places that do not have sufficient grid power, and I do mean power rather than energy, through the use of batteries and time averaging of supply to accommodate bursts of DCFC usage. There is also much energy wasted right now when there is low demand, especially in renewable energy like wind and solar. These battery stations will be the future of all grid energy, I'm sure of this.
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    No bias here.

    "Similar to Tesla’s own proprietary network, Toyota will explore cost-effective L2 public charging deployment <-- A mistake imho..."
    Wayne isn't being critical of L2 in that statement, but of Toyota going a proprietary network route. If only Toyota's can use the chargers, then they aren't going to help much with plug in adoption no matter what type of charger it is. Tesla pulled it off because, like their BEVs, they were the only company willing to install public chargers to support road trips in a BEV.

    "L2 for daily drivers is ok but having a vehicle camped on an L2 for 4 to 5-hours means it will be camped on the same overnight leaving no time for another owner to charge."
    If the number of L2 chargers installed would be the same as if they were DCFC, this is a simple fact. L2 or slower in the best charging for daily use; lower cost and less wear on the battery. You just need enough of them for all the plug ins on a daily basis.

    DCFC pricing isn't linked to matching gas prices. In addition to industrial electric rates being higher than residential, the chargers are the sole source of income. If gas stations couldn't sell anything else, fuel was literally the only thing they could sell, gas prices would be higher.
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  5. litesong

    litesong litesong

    First) It is clear that lots of outfits are jumping to make money on EV DCFC charging. The faster they can jam electricity into batteries, & the greater they charge above the local energy rate, the quicker they make money & they don’t care that batteries won’t get full lifespan. Second) It is clear even many owners of EVs don’t care about the lifetime of their batteries & jam the electricity in. Third) It is clear many people WANT to wastefully use electrical power to accomplish questionable desires.
    As one who sees the possible efficient benefit of EVs to society & the poor, I despise baby(you call it, new) technology wasted with short battery life, greedy costs, & unnecessary stress to collapsing grids. Communication media protection of such waste is another layer of crud barring the poor from rising from the dirt, when the poor meet more dirt in their rising.
    As you say, “take the cost issue out of the mix”.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Litesong:

    The amount of electricity to take a BEV from flat to full is essentially the same no matter if its an L1 trickle, hours on an L2, or decently fast on a DCFC. The problem is more EVs are being sold then DCFCers are going up. You have never sat at a DCFCing station waiting for an open charger, have you? It sucks! Here is the one and only EA DCFCing station at the Florida Mall near Orlando.


    Those 3 Walmart trucks are Ford Transit Connect charging at a peak of 115 KW and a lot less to go to 100%!

    The US cannot allow slow charging vehicles including the entire Ford, GM, Toyota, and Lexus BEV lineup to camp on these for well over an hour to get to 100%. There are not enough chargers and will not be enough chargers for that. :(

    Moving to L2s, sure they are cheaper to install but they are not for standard PHEV and especially BEV charging in public spaces. They simply take way to long and lockout another PHEV or BEV from charging on them. An apartment complex in Oceanside, CA had 4 L2s and rarely was I able to attach for a few minutes due to other BEVs attached for a half a day or more! A free Volta L2 at a local shopping center is not fast enough or numerous enough to make a dent. I have pulled into two local grocery store Volta's near Carlsbad, CA only to find one sometimes broke and the other tied up for the up to 2 hours a vehicle was parked there.


    Your idea of free and slow L2 charging is a pipe dream as somebody is paying it and the business' rates, they usually pay more than what you would pay on a DCFC, let alone an L2 at home! Leave L2 for the home or small businesses that can allow their employees to camp at work while plugged in all day. A Public L2 is a nightmare. I have experienced it tens of times myself and even DCFCing is not fast enough due to the OEMs designing 150 KW peak slow charging vehicles. :(

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  7. litesong

    litesong litesong

    As stated, all EV equipment is baby technology now. Why would anyone deal with baby technology, force their babies to perform adult tasks & then pretend to be surprised when the babies die prematurely.
    At least Elon Musk forces equipment to fail without being surprised. Then he analyzes the failure modes & developes new tech in hopes the problem is overcome.
    As for me, if & when I can afford an EV, I’ll change my operating modes, taking plenty of time, but hopefully arriving at three hundred, thousand miles with a battery pack not yet failing.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2023
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