VWs Near Future Electrified Drivetrain Designs

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, May 16, 2018.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] The next gen Golf will be equipped with a 48V mild hybrid system. A new 2.0L TDI will be the first VW turbo diesel with a mild hybrid system. :)

    Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – May 15, 2018

    48-V belt-integrated starter generator, 48-V battery and DC/DC converter.​

    Vienna, Austria – At a European drivetrain symposium, Volkswagen announced it will be updating its model lineup with completely new electrified drive systems. These include affordable mild hybrid drives with 48V technology and a new high-tech hybridized turbo diesel.

    One of the most important is a 48V mild hybrid system scheduled for the next generation Golf. With the new 48V system, VW aims to make hybrid drives more affordable. The drive systems reduce consumption and emissions. Volkswagen will gradually extend the electrification of conventional drives to the entire fleet. The next Golf represents the starting point in this worldwide electric campaign.

    The next drivetrain is one we may never see in the U.S. but it interests me anyway. The updated 2.0L TDI turbo diesel engine will have the moniker EA288 Evo. VWs turbo diesel will be ready for the future. In Vienna, VW demonstrates the great potential of this drivetrain. The EA288 Evo will begin as a mild hybrid drive with 12V belt starter generator. In conjunction with a Li-Ion battery, the mild hybrid system reduces fuel consumption. The brand promises the new TDI engine(s) will provide extremely low emissions in all driving cycles. The Evo 2.0L TDI output ranges from 136 hp to 204 hp. The TDI engines developed by Volkswagen will initially be used at Audi in vehicles with a longitudinally installed drive train. The new TDI engines will also be used transversely in the MQB designed vehicles in the future.

    With the EA288 Evo engine family, Volkswagen has developed a TDI that is technologically at the forefront. The combustion process has been redesigned to reduce both fuel consumption and emissions. The exhaust aftertreatment components include a reconfigured diesel particulate filter and SCR system.

    48V technology

    48V technology enables drives to be electrified more affordably. The 48V system via a belt-integrated starter generator (BSG) enables a considerably higher amount of energy to be saved with lower current than a 12V system while allowing some brake regeneration.

    Like Hyundai’s single motor systems with a BSG but not designed as a full hybrid, VWs starter-generator performs the role of alternator and starter. At the same time, it functions as a small, lightweight electric motor that immediately increases drive torque upon start-up by means of an electric boost. The power of the generator is transferred via a belt. The generator also starts the combustion engine which is switched off as much as possible while the vehicle is moving. Think of it as an electric FAS! The starter generator receives the necessary voltage via the 48V battery and the 12V power supply receives the required voltage via the “DC/DC converter”.

    The full electric and electrified drivetrain strategies will result in a product lines diverges into two branches. This new product strategy will arrive in 2019 with the launch of the next generation Golf and the first I.D.

    The big question is why not a full hybrid 300+ V drivetrain? Can it cost that much more?
    Mendel Leisk, BillLin and Jay like this.
  2. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    I think the mild hybrid would be a great deal cheaper than the full hybrid. The mild hybrid need not have a Li-Ion battery. A heavy duty pb-acid would do. The BSG is not that much more expensive than the alternator a non-hybrid would still need and the mild hybrid can dispense with the starter motor.
    BillLin and xcel like this.
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jay:

    A 1.5 kWh Li-Ion pack costs < $250 for an OEM nowadays. The inverter is there already as is the small 48V Li-Ion. Little to no savings there. The only savings between the mild and full hybrid is a single 40 to 60 hp motor and its integration between the engine and transmission similar to Hyundai. That cannot be over $1k for that motor? A full hybrid is vastly more efficient than a Mild one but I have read within numerous VW and Bosch releases that the new 48V system will allow full ICE-Off glides. That changes the mild hybrids capability mightily. Regeneration via a 48V system vs. a 300+ V or 650V via a step up is going to be severely current limited and nowhere near as efficient during any slow down.

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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    I've read elsewhere that these 48 volt systems add $800 to $1200 to the MSRP of a car. A full hybrid adds about $3000; $2000 would be really cheap. So these mild hybrids have greater potential to reduce fuel use fleet wide by becoming standard equipment. It already is on the V6 Ram pick up.

    Part of the cost savings for these systems is in the fact that they don't need to meet the safety regulations that the high voltage full hybrids do.
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  5. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    Looking at the cost alone is only part of the story, fuel economy should not be the only benefit the hybrid offers.

    A full hybrid has a much greater potential to make driving experience much better, with throttle response, continues acceleration, seamless engine start, more EV power and in the end cheaper PHEV "retrofit"... Features that are well wort the hybrid premium for me. I'm not saying that Prius offers all those advantages, but at least it looks like a future Prius will, because after many years Toyota is finally marketing hybrids as something more than just fuel economy and environment. (Lexus "Fast as h")
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    This is a subjective criteria. Some people like CVTs, others hate them. Buyers in the past had passed on the Prius because of how it rode and handled.

    Cheaper PHEV might be possible, if the manufacturer designs the car to be PHEV from the beginning. The Prime is cheap, but you have to give up a fifth seat and nearly 6cu.ft. of cargo space. With the continuing drop in battery costs, a shorter range BEV with a range extender in series will likely end up the cheapest; there is no transmission cost, and lower costs for engine tuning for performance and emissions.

    The LS500h is $4500 more than the ICE model. A small price in comparison to the car's full price, but buyers are going to see than the ICE alone has improved fuel economy and performance over the car it is replacing, and pass on the hybrid. Just as they do with the less luxurious models.

    I am not knocking full hybrids, but gas is cheap in the US. Hybrids have struggled to get 3% of new car sales because of that, and those numbers include mild hybrids like the old Malibu.
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  7. SI_Prius

    SI_Prius Well-Known Member

    This not about CVT (take IONIQ hybrid) and not about current hybrid offering, I just see much greater future potential in full hybrid.

    My take on this is that 48V system will be seen more as fuel saving thing only, where full hybrid can make it's way higher on desirability.
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    I was using CVT as an example. The things that could make the driving experience better in a full hybrid for one person, can make it worse for another.

    One of the first cars with a 48V system is a high end, high performance Mercedes. Once you have a higher power electrical system on the car, options open up beyond saving fuel. That Mercedes and others will be prespinning up turbos to eliminate the lag. Catalytic converter heaters and electric A/Cs aren't far off. The M/Gs of these systems are as powerful as the HSG on Hyundai hybrids, so they already can provide smooth engine starts.

    Power hybrids have been around since the first Accord and Highlander hybrid. The majority willing to spend extra for a hybrid wanted fuel savings. The power hybrid got relegated to luxury models. Before the LC 500h, Lexus had the LS 600h. For the price of either one, a person can buy a Model S. That's the real reason Toyota is marketing the LC hybrid now. The other luxury brands are going straight to PHEVs. On a side note, the hybrid system in the LC is an HSD with a 4 speed automatic on the back end, so continuous acceleration may not be for it.

    Full hybrid systems have an advantage over mild in regards to adding a plug, but the desirability of the PHEV isn't in the full hybrid side. It is in the EV side, and a PHEV can be made by a manufacturer without a full power-split or parallel system.

    As regulations get stricter, and costs drop, it won't matter how the public views a 48V system, because cars that aren't a hybrid to some degree will be the rarity.
  9. joshdurston

    joshdurston Rogue Canadian

    I think the industry is doing itself a disservice by calling 48v hybrids, "hybrids". While it might appeal to eco/green minded buyers, it's a turn off to power/luxury oriented buyers.
    Just come up with a flashy name and logo for high power 48v electrical system. (Everyone wants more power/volts/watts/amps) It'll reduce the hybrid stigma, and enable all the positives that trollbait mentioned.
    At some point I would think these systems should be the expected norm on ICE cars, and not bear any special labelling.
    When the cost of a hybrid system is less than an AC system to me it's a no brainer no matter the buyer's mindset on hybrid and green tech.
    Being able to roll thru a drive-thru to pick up a coffee with the AC on and engine off would go along way. (Drive-thru's kill my MPG big time on my Subaru, but I hit them all the time in my Volt).
    BillLin likes this.
  10. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Yeah , I would NEVER use a drive-thru before I got my hybrid car. The thought of sitting in the car with
    engine running makes me ill. Today , I use them sometimes. But I NEVER run A/C unless the engine is running.
    The Prius doesn't have a lot of battery to spare. And we all know where electricity comes from , right ?
    BillLin likes this.
  11. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    On long downhills, one can run the compressor without it sucking on the battery directly. Of course, that does add drag or reduce recharging slightly.
    BillLin likes this.
  12. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    We don't have long downhills. We don't even have real hills , lol.
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  13. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Plenty hills here, and also in North Jersey when I visited there recently. They're a mixed blessing; can help if I don't have to brake. Local authorities love to plant 4-way stops at the bottoms of hills, which is no help at all.
    BillLin likes this.

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