Sometimes when talking to the highly educated, you just have to do an eye roll

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by ALS, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Salmonella isn't a pathogen to birds and reptiles for the same reason the vast majority of E. coli isn't a pathogen to humans, they are the native gut flora of the animals. Hygiene will go a long way from preventing illness form any potential pathogens.
    It is the added sugar that is the emulsifier. Palm oil is probably just solid at room temperature. Which isn't a good sign in terms how healthy a food it is, but it will slow the separation rate. The 'natural' peanut butters I've seen with palm oil also add sugar. True 'natural' ones don't add sugar.
    The Chinese are only encouraging coal outside China, and that's to appease their coal sector since they are cutting back coal use at home. Reports of new coal plants in China are for new, more efficient plants. They are shutting down older plants that generally require legal battles to do so in the US.
    NeilBlanchard likes this.
  2. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member


    BEIJING (Reuters) - China’s coal output rose in June from the previous month to a record high, official data showed on Monday, as miners ramped up production to ensure supply ahead of peak summer demand for electricity.

    The world’s top coal producer churned out 333.35 million tonnes of coal in June, up 6.7% from May and up 10.4% year-on-year, data from the National Bureau of Statistics showed.

    Output over the first half of 2019 reached 1.76 billion tonnes, up 2.6% from the same period last year.
    China June coal output hits record high as miners ramp up ahead of summer
    JULY 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Below the ad break,
    "China generated 583.4 billion kilowatt-hours (kWh) of power in June, up 2.8% year-on-year, the data showed, with coal-fired power generation rising 0.1% from a year ago after two months of year-on-year declines."

    China's coal portion for electricity last year was down to 59%.
    While their NG, nuclear, and renewables increased their share. While their electric use for June went up, perhaps more of their people have air conditioners, most of the increase came from other sources besides coal. If the portion of coal remained steady, it would have made up about 9.4 billion kWh of that increase. Instead, it was maybe 0.335 billion kWh of the increase.

    China has alot of coal capacity still, so it isn't as if they couldn't increase electric production with it if they wanted. The growth in coal is going to direct heating, exports and steel.
    That proposal is coming from China's coal industry. Just like the coal industry in the US, they are lobbying government to save their ass. That doesn't mean they will get it.

    While their growth in coal power slowed last year, China invested heavily into renewables.
    "Last year nearly half of the world’s new renewable energy investment of $279.8 billion (pdf, p.11) came from China, ...China’s investment in renewable energy—excluding large hydro projects—rose 30% compared with 2016, and was more than three times of that of the US, whose investment in the sector dropped 6% from 2016 to $40.5 billion last year.
    "“No country has put itself in a better position to become the world’s renewable energy superpower than China,” says the report, which was issued by the Global Commission on the Geopolitics of Energy Transformation – a group chaired by a former president of Iceland, Olafur Grimsson."

    As the cost of solar, wind, and energy storage continue to decrease, it will become harder for coal going forward. That said, coal is going to remain part of China's energy mix; they don't have the access to cheap natural gas that the US does. But they are doing coal right. None of the US coal plants will meet their efficiency standard for 2020.
  6. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    "On March 26, Reuters reported that China added 194 million metric tons of coal production capacity last year, citing a statement by the National Energy Administration (NEA).

    The expansion came despite Premier Li Keqiang's pledge to "get rid of" 150 million tons of capacity in 2018, announced in his work report to national legislators in March of last year. Li said nothing about adding new capacity to offset the cuts.

    The additions may mark the end of China's campaign for consolidation and capacity cutting in the coal industry, which was driven by overproduction and collapsing prices in 2012.

    The increases may have consequences for greenhouse gas emissions and climate change if higher capacity leads to greater growth in production and consumption. China's output of coal rose 5.2 percent last year."


    But the NEA said total production capacity rose to 3.53 billion tons from 3.34 billion tons at the end of 2017.

    According to Reuters, the 2018 figure did not include 1.03 billion tons of mining capacity under construction and 370 million tons more under "trial operation."

    Taken together, the annual coal capacity could reach 4.93 billion tons.


    But China has "quietly resumed" construction of more than 50 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired capacity that had previously been postponed by the central government, the groups said, citing satellite photos.

    The report also noted a proposal by the China Electricity Council to set a cap of 1,300 GW of coal-fired capacity for 2030. The plan would allow an increase of 290 GW above current levels, or more than the current coal generating capacity of the United States, it said."

    China Adds Coal Capacity Despite Pledge to Cut 2019-04-15
  7. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So,... to be clear:

    1. China is NOT cutting back on coal
    2. China is NOT cutting back on coal
    3. China is NOT cutting back on coal

    ..quite the opposite.

    Get it???
  8. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I'm starting to think that China LIKES coal.
    Carcus likes this.
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    "On March 26, Reuters reported that China added 194 million metric tons of coal production capacity last year, citing a statement by the National Energy Administration (NEA)."
    Increasing capacity does not automatically mean an increase in production. From the same article, "But conclusive readings remain difficult, since the government may be allowing an increase in coal mine capacity to keep prices from rising too much." One of the other articles I or you linked showed that those prices have decreased.

    "The report also noted a proposal by the China Electricity Council to set a cap of 1,300 GW of coal-fired capacity for 2030."
    This is was coal lobbyists in China want. That doesn't mean they will get it.
    Well, it is what they have.
    They don't have the easy to get to natural gas that the US does. They are the sixth producer globally. The US is number one with over 5.5 times the output of China; Pennsylvania produces more than them. While China is increasing what they produce, that production doesn't cover half of what they already consume.
    Nor do they have petroleum. Again, they are number six, but the US produces 4 times as much. Their ratio of production to consumption is much worse than for natural gas.

    China is a developing nation. Their energy consumption is going to increase, and some of that increase is because of they are making stuff for other countries. From the above article, "Andrews-Speed noted that the government has also recently approved construction of several nuclear power projects, suggesting that future economic growth will require added generating capacity, despite the current oversupply." If China didn't give a damn, they could easily just expand coal power, but they are investing in nuclear and also built the world's largest hydroelectric dam. They also want to be the world's supplier of wind and solar equipment.

    They are diversifying away from coal. I pointed out that that the majority of their new energy consumption was something other than coal. Completely cutting it shouldn't be expected. The US is in a much better position to do so, but hasn't done so. I'm not happy with China continuing to use coal, but they are being responsible and proactive in that use. They are shutting down older plants to replace them with newer, more efficient ones. If the US was following the same planning, our coal plants would be off line and replaced by next year.

    I didn't mention it earlier, because it is a fraction of coal use(10% to 15% globally), but China's rate of coal use for steel is increasing faster than their overall coal use.

    So China's coal use is increasing because that is what they have for meeting their energy needs, but they are moving away from it. With the increasing standard of living, coal use can drop further. China's population already wants less pollution, and coal plants have shut down for that reason. Large parts of their poulation also use coal for heating and cooking. Expanding the electric grid can move them to other sources for those needs.

    For those concerned over the increase, what do you propose in order to curb that? Well, besides stop making all our stuff there.
    Give them deals on the other fossil fuels they import? materials for nuclear plants?
    Subsidize natural gas and renewable power in Asia, Africa, and other developing areas to counter the coal plants China is building?
  10. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So China is going full speed ahead. Mining and burning (and importing, .. if necessary) more and more coal.

    Beautiful clean coal. (I can't remember who coined that phrase(?))

    "Industry groups still expect coal-fired power capacity to increase over the next few years, with investments in nuclear and renewables still insufficient to cover rising energy demand.

    The research unit of the China State Grid Corporation last month forecast that total coal-fired capacity would peak at 1,230-1,350 gigawatts (GW), which would mean an increase of about 200-300 GW.

    A study published earlier this year also suggested China's targets would allow the construction of another 290 GW of coal-fired capacity in the coming years.

    China is convinced it can continue to raise coal production and consumption while significantly reducing emissions. It has made "ultra-low emissions" technology mandatory in all new coal power plants an is also improving mine zoning regulations to ensure pollution is minimised.

    By the end of last year, 80% of total coal-fired power capacity had installed "ultra-low emissions" equipment, amounting to 810 GW, the government said.

    Michelle Manook, chief executive of the World Coal Association, an industry lobby group, told Reuters that coal remains a crucial element in the world's transition to cleaner energy, and the focus should be on cutting emissions rather than banning coal entirely.

    "It's not about transitioning away from any one source of energy. it's about transitioning to cleaner energy. And with investment, coal has a significant role," she said. (Additional reporting by Beijing and Shanghai newsrooms; Editing by Joseph Radford)

    China coal mine approvals surge despite climate pledges Tuesday, 6 August 2019


    /@ Trollbait: so you're not concerned, .. Michelle Manook isn't concerned, ... I guess I'm not gonna worry about it either. We are all in agreement: --- long live beautiful clean coal!
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    The mining capacity expansion is help reduce imports.

    Did you decry the US for increasing petroleum production to reduce imports? Our oil consumption has steadily increasing since 2012. It was 20.5 million barrels a day in 2018. 2019 is projected to be 20.7, and 2020 at 20.9. 20.8mil/barrels/day was the peak in 2005.

    US natural gas consumption has also been climbing.

    The US has more wind being installed than natural gas, but China already has over 2.2 times the wind capacity of the US.
    A Chinese company is number 3 for wind energy.
    "As China continues to be the world’s largest wind energy market and number one wind turbine installer, Goldwind is significantly benefited by this soaring demand, making it the largest wind turbine manufacturer in China. By late 2017, Goldwind has installed a total capacity of 41GW wind turbines in over 20 major countries around the world." -

    All the solar and wind we are putting in was likely made with Chinese coal. GE also has turbine blade factories there. See, when a country is making stuff for others, their energy requirements and carbon emissions increase.
    "22.5% of the emissions produced in China in 2004 were exported, on net, to consumers elsewhere." -

    Wasn't me. I am merely pointing out that China is replacing older plants with newer, more efficient ones. Get them a secure source of natural gas, and they may put that in instead.

    Burning any fossil fuel is a concern in terms of global warming. Calling out China's use of them is hypocritical while our own fossil fuel use continues to grow. China would be burning more coal if they truly didn't give a damn. And the US is lucky to have its natural gas supplies. Without them, we wouldn't have been able to reduce our carbon emissions as much as we have, but we still emit over two times as much as China per capita. It would be worse if we accounted for the things we import.
  12. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    China recently (last week) opened upstream oil and gas development to foreign entities (i.e. JV no longer required). I would expect China's oil and gas production to increase (perhaps soar?) with this development. (for a while, until they later "re-nationalize" all the investment and give the foreign entities the boot (which usually happens)..

    Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

    What should I think/believe in order to avoid being hypocritical?
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    China is a developing nation. Their energy use will grow as their population gets wealthier. They have made large investments into renewable energy, but there is that economic growth still going on. So they turn to coal to fill that gap. It may even be better for them financially to grow coal at home, and sell PV and wind turbines abroad.

    If their natural gas sector grows, great. That should lead to some coal plants becoming natural gas ones. Maybe renewables will also replace some coal projects as their costs drop. But at least they are getting the most out of the coal they do burn. China could have easily left those old plants in place and running.

    Then things don't happen in a vacuum. Much of China's expansions in the coal sector happened after the US left the Paris Agreement. We are the second largest emitter of greenhouse gases, and number one per capita. When we say fuck it, others are sure to take notice. The only reason coal isn't doing better here, with preferential treatment from the administration, is because natural gas and wind is simply cheaper. For China coal is cheaper than natural gas.

    It is disappointing that China is investing in more coal. But it is understandable, and is done along side a large investment into renewables.
  14. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Let's see here....
    The US has about double the coal reserves that China has.
    US Coal is getting "preferential treatment" from Trump.
    China makes all the wind turbines.

    US electricity is cheaper from wind while China electricity is cheaper from coal because ...... WHY?
    The wind doesn't blow in China?
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  15. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Also, ...

    Once you put steel in the ground for a coal fired plant, .. that's a 30 year commitment ($$$).. probably longer. So all those hundreds of coal fired plants that China is building at home and abroad aren't going away for quite some time.
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Did you miss the part where I showed China has over 2.2 times the wind capacity of the US, and they are still installing more. I'll now add that they have over 2.8 times the solar capacity of the US. They can improve on their installations, but they are working on it.

    I never coal was cheaper than wind.
    I did say coal was cheaper than natural gas for China. Simply because they don't have natural gas, and I assume digging up their own coal is cheaper than shipping in LNG. At this point, restricting themselves to natural gas would be like choosing to be like Japan in terms of resources on purpose.

    Wind is cheap in China. It and solar have reached the point where the country is ending subsidies for. A back log of subsidy payments may have delayed some projects. Wind being cheap hasn't ended the use of natural gas in the US. So don't expect it to end coal in China. Without grid level energy storage, renewables will still need conventional power plants to support them. It can be done, but there will be lag before they will make a difference, even if started today.

    The 290GW proposal you've brought up here a couple times are projects that haven't reached the drawing board yet.

    China's central planning gives them more control over the lifespan of projects. The work going on coal plants now are projects that had been halted for a couple years by Beijing. They were started up again electricity demand has grown faster than expected, and regions are experiencing shortages.
  17. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    You are taking my statements out of context, twisting things around and around. You seem to get smart ,.. then get stupid. Assume I'm smart, .. then assume I'm stupid.
    This shit gets old.

    I won't argue for the sake of arguing ... pretty sure you're much better at that.

    Trollbait = sophist.
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    What have I taken out of context?
  19. litesong

    litesong litesong

    From Wikipedia:
    Of the 22 clean coal demonstration projects funded by the U.S. Department of Energy since 2003, none are in operation as of February 2017, having been abandoned or delayed......
    As for communist china(always small letters) & their cleanliness, 25% of the pollution on the U.S. west coast, comes from communist china (always small letters).
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Some of that pollution is due to out sourcing production to China.

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