The Case for Reparations

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by booferama, May 22, 2014.

  1. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    Thanks, worthywads. Where do I send my bribe--I mean thank-you gift? You like good beer, right?

    And thanks to phoeb for reading the essay. I don't really see the call for reparations as Christian so much as legal, as Noah Millman points out in the essay I posted somewhere in this thread.

    As for the repeated claim that I'm preaching, here's how I began the thread:

    Yep, that's preaching.
  2. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    I work at Avery Brewing Co boof, save that beer for yourself so you have something to drink after you quit your job and can get mapman's consideration.

    I can't seem to find the preaching either?
  3. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    But the purported benefits-Coates was kinda LITE on benefits to the folks who would pay-
    4 TRILLION DOLLARS at a measly $100,000 per

    and the INDIANS- you completely ignore than can of worms.

    AND if his essay is "mainly legal" well let them seek a legal remedy
    But if they get a remedy-be prepared to LEAVE the country-or pay rent-back rent-to the indians-because the INDIANS CASE- is better-much better-worth more too.
    We USA-E-INS apparently violated many legal agreements with the "indians"-and we killed them and took their land-3,500,000 sq miles-so

    Reparations for Blacks means reparations for indians-
    Why in hell should the USA do that when EVERY country on earth did the same thing?
    Hey that is taking American Exceptionalism a bit too literally

    We are saints by comparison to the Brits-slaughtered MILLIONS of Wogs- drained the wealth of India+ Egypt+china+sub saharan africa+middle east(plus Ireland for what it was worth+scotland worth even less but troublesome bunch)-and fought a couple of wars for the right to sell opium to the chinese-freakin drug cartel narco terrorists but better armed better trained better lead

    In any case-all countries behave "badly"-only losers pay reparations.
    and reparations-German WW1 AND WW2 can backfire(WW1>WW2) or have other unintended "side effects" german>israel>lucky arabs palestinians rise of "radical Islam"
  4. aca2983

    aca2983 Well-Known Member

    I am a subscriber to The Atlantic and I read the essay- albeit drowsily before bed over the course of a couple evenings. I'll reread it. I enjoy reading Coates online and in print and he's always interesting and I learn something. I have sensed he's going through a blue period. He's a father, and recent events (largely unreported) have rattled him with regards to the vulnerability of (unarmed) black youth when faced against others who are trigger happy at the slightest (perceived) fear. A repeated point is that some lives are worth more than others and the system validates this.

    My takeaway about the reparations article wasn't so much about monetary payment as one usually concludes. I think the case that he lays out best is the many instances where African American families were denied the ability to create and build wealth the same way as others. Redlining, predatory lenders, all that stuff. Unfortunately people (and all levels of government) were complicit. It was (but one part) of an enforced system of white supremacy (not sure if he used that term in this article, but he has in others). Strong words, and uncomfortable to think about but thats what it was.

    Never mind whether or not its possible for any remediation or "reparations" however you may define it, to take place. Even the very discussion of what *might* warrant such action is culturally taboo and politically off-limits.
  5. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member


    What are you referring to-"recent events-unarmed black youths vulnerable....etc"
    Chicago-huge number of shootings killings?
    My impression is most of that is drug trade "business"

    Few years back-a writer Raspberry(sic) black guy- wrote an essay suggesting blacks took on the anti education(college boy) and clannish violent "blood feud" mores of the white rednecks they lived next to.

    No question black USA-E-INS-not recent immigrants but the descendants of slaves-do kill plenty of their own

    Anyway-what are you referring to "blue period" guessing it is black males slaughtering black males- usually getting the person they want to kill-but with plenty of collateral damage- MLK day last year(over 1 year ago) was a disaster here in NOLA --child killed- many injured

    Well armed poorly educated no job skills no father at home no scruples no morals
    no real future bang bang bang
  6. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    The "blue period" aca refers to is a bit of inside baseball about Ta-Nehisi Coates. Some readers think he's taken a dark turn in recent years, what they call a blue period. He doesn't think very highly of that distinction.

    The "recent events" involving "unarmed black youth" refers to the killings of Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis.
  7. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Black males much much more likely to be killed by a black male than a white anything-
    maybe 10x more likely
    Not sure why blacks killing blacks is so unimportant to black intellectuals?
  8. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    Ah, yes, "black-on-black crime." It's true that African Americans are more likely to be killed by someone of the same race; it's also true of white people--white people are more likely to be killed by other white people. Most crime is intra-racial. So to speak of "black-on-black crime" is a little odd (the phrase originated in 1975, if you're curious). We don't speak of white-on-white crime or Latino-on-Latino crime. Intra-racial crime is more a result of continued segregation than anything else.

    But, yes, the crime rate is higher among African Americans. Notably, it's concentrated in areas of extreme poverty, poverty that stems in some part from redlining policies and predatory lending.

    You close by writing "Not sure why blacks killing blacks is so unimportant to black intellectuals?" I'm going to guess you don't read much writing by black intellectuals. Here, for example, is Ta-Nehisi Coates writing about crime in the African-American community, in an essay that cites several community protests in response to "black-on-black crime."
  9. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Very good point Phoeb. The Native Americans case is just as strong.
  10. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    Sounds like you and phoeb have something to champion. :woot:
  11. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Actual statistics are striking. 2011 FBI stats.

    2011 Arrests for Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. Note it is not convictions.

    White 4,000

    Black 4,149

    See link for full report.
  12. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Interesting that you mention that. I have a brother who is 100% Navaho. My parents adopted two Navaho children when I was about 14. A boy and a girl. They were 1 year old and a newborn. They were abandoned. My sister passed away a few years ago, but my brother is doing well.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  13. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    "Slippery slopes will not do. The "If we give them one, they'll all have one" argument is demonstrably false. This is as it should be. The argument for black reparations is not simply "Hey guys, we did it for the Japanese-Americans so it must be right." A claim must stand on its arguments. Nothing would please me more than to read a 15,000 word "Case for Native American Reparations." I say this because we can't evaluate particular claims without understanding particular history." --Ta-Nehisi Coates

    And thanks for the crime-stats link, bestmapman. The racial variation among crimes is all over the map; I haven't studied crime (I'm not a criminologist), but I'd be willing to bet that much crime in African-American communities is at the very least an indirect result of endemic poverty.
  14. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Darn, I thought you weren't going to respond to me in this thread anymore. I know you just can't help yourself LOL.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  15. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Since you are responding to me again.....

    Interesting point. I wonder if your Coates hero will do that or is he only limited to the African-American causes.
  16. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    Well, you posted a useful link that actually responded to the discussion.

    Hmm. I'm not sure how you decided Coates is my hero. I do admire him as a writer and a thinker. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote about Native-American claims for reparations, though it would likely be a while before that appeared, if he were to do it. His writing is founded in research; the reparations article evidently took him through thousands of pages of books, articles, and personal stories, not to mention on-site research and interviews.

    Coates has also written about school reform, the death penalty, history, books he's reading (Anne Applebaum's The Iron Curtain, Hobbes's Leviathan), Iraq, his experience re-learning French. In short, he writes about a lot of things, wherever his intellectual interest carries him.
  17. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    I was referring to the RECENTS EVENTS "Depressing" Coates comment
    Boof or ACA clarified that "recent events" meant the Trayvon Martin and one other "not black person killing black person" killing.
    The implication from it was that COATES was MORE depressed by a "not white person" killing a black person that the far more common black killing black KILLINGS.

    You are right-I don't read black or white intellectuals writings.
  18. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    And you're certainly not under any obligation to, from me or anyone else. But if you make claims like "Not sure why blacks killing blacks is so unimportant to black intellectuals?" then you're going to get called on it. If you'd asked, "Do black intellectuals write about the murder rate in black communities?" we'd be having a different discussion.
  19. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Crude guess 70% of population is "white" 14% is black
    So blacks get arrested for "killing" 5X as often as whites
    Doesn't give a breakdown of how many black people where killed by blacks
    or how many killed by whites
    but my guess is a very high percentage of those "killed black people" were killed by black people-90%

    Frankly the "INDIAN" case for reparations-seems MUCH BETTER
    1)Slavery was LEGAL- Supreme Court-said as much
    2)and much of the Jim Crow "stuff" also legal-once again passed muster by Court
    3)But the Indians- had many written agreements-that were violated
    4) and if Europeans hadn't arrived "Indians" would control 3,500,000 sq miles of valuable USA real estate-so pretty easy to calculated losses
    5)And the USA government intentionally KILLED -many many "Indians"-with slaves the intention wasn't to kill them-not much point in that
    5)and 400,000 "white people" died to free slaves
    6)And if you compare "what ifs"
    a)No europeans-indians have LOTS of valuable real estate
    b) no slavery-them the descendants would be living typical african lives-so a bit harder to come up with a big number $$-to make good economic loss

    So the case for reparations to indians-better than descendants of slaves-much better

    On the other hand-the Navaho(and apache and other nomad tribes for canada)-entered what is now USA- probably about 1300-1400-and fairly rapidly migrated to the SW- they displaced(and killed) many many pueblo indians
    The poor farmers-pueblo indians hopi and other tribes-kinda threw in with the Spaniards-hoping they would protect than from the Navaho-
    Well they were pretty quickly dissuaded from that notion-they really were between a rock(spaniards) and a hard place(navaho)-this kinda explains their low numbers
    Navaho are a huge tribe-maybe 400,000 or so

    My point-Indians certainly got a raw deal from europeans-USA-E-INS- but various tribes-also got a raw deal--from other tribes that displaced them
    Bigger point it is very tough to right old wrongs-
    there are very few saintly ethnic groups in human history-
    Except the Irish of course-you can send my reparations to phoebeisis at paypal

    I am very happy sides of families left that island(one was a copper miner-and where he lived in ireland was such a shi$$Y place that Butte Montana-1870- was a garden spot by comparison
    AL-A HEES- 1870(miserable windswept rocky SW coast of ireland-looks like they grew rocks
    ANYWAY if Butte Montana looked good-AL-A-HEES must have been a real POS place!!

    so paypal phoebeisis for mistreating my ancestors -you anti irish bigots
  20. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    No I was addressing why NOT BLACKS killing blacks depressed Coates more than blacks killing blacks
    One of you-ACA or you-brought up Coates's "blue period" which you or ACA ascribed to the 2 not white persons killing black persons Martin/Zimmerman and the other one

    Implication was it "depressed" Coates more than the far more common black on black killings

    You guys brought up Coates's "blue period" and explained it in the way that strongly suggested he was more depressed about these to "out of race killings" than about the wholesale slaughter of black by blacks-4200 arrests-so probably 5000 or so killings

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