The Case for Reparations

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by booferama, May 22, 2014.

  1. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    That was so sutle I am surprised it raised you dander. Weirdly Oh Oh ... your smug is showing.

    And is the governmnet some abstract entity. No, it is us. We will have to pay even though most of us have no responsibility.

    Hence the crux of the matter. You are an individual. You don't want to do more or as you say you are unable to do more. If you wanted to do more, you could do what I have outlined but you won't, why? Is it because that others will be doing more than you. It would not be a collective sacrifice. Your solution is a collective solution. The government (all of us) must act. Even though as individuals most had nothing to do with this.

    That is where we part company. You want to hold the collective responsible. I as an individual want no responsibility for something I am not responsibility for.

    It is a fair question to ask what you have done when you preach to us. It is like when AlGore preaches to us about global warming but flies around in private jets.

    If you came to me an had actually made a sacrifice for your cause, then I would listen.

    Look at the top of the of this posting. You said " weirdly narrow logical process" by adding weird, you are calling me "weird". It was not necessary but an example of a type of name calling.

    As far as the troll comments go, Since you raised the troll issue, I was just letting you look in the mirror.

    Also, come on Charlie, calling me a troll is pretty weak.

    Wow, I didn't realize that my comment hit you so hard. Lighten up a little. You have been throwing a lot of comments too. We (You and I) have been very civil and I will complement you on that.

    Don't take it so personal. If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it also.

    Right, you as an individual are talking to me as an individual in this forum. You are trying to convince us(all here including me) to do something. I ask "what have you done". Your reply is nothing. I say go do something and you reply why. I said, resign your position and give half of your wealth and I will listen. Does that make sense to you now. That is my standard as an individual. But, you won't do anything until I do it(taxes). That doesn't satisfy me.

    As I said before, actually do something(make a meaningful sacrifice) and I and others will listen.

    No, what you are doing is trying to make us all responsible and make us all pay. You think in terms of groups. I think in terms of individuals. As an individual I am not responsible for this and do not want to be held responsible for something I as an individual did not do.
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
  2. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    I am arguing against the very CONCEPTION of having folks who played no role in the wrongdoing-pay for the wrongdoing.
    Reading the essay-it will just be some guy trying to Cleverly trick the great unwashed into thinking we are at fault for something we didn't do.
    He -Coates-no doubt a clever guy-convinced you-but it will be typical sophistry-
    And it will be taking MY money to repair an ill -I hand no hand in
    No DOUBT he will cleverly claim-I benefitted from the wrong doing
    And you think we are stupid or guilty enough to believe that??

    I know what he wrote-clever GUILTING-white liberals eat it uo
  3. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    This will be my last response to bestmapman in this thread, unless he actually reads the Coates essay and responds thoughtfully. I can't imagine anyone cares at this point otherwise about what he and I write to each other. I'm still happy to respond to those of you who have read the essay and choose to respond thoughtfully.

    It's true, the government isn't an abstract entity. But the question of responsibility isn't so clear-cut in this case. For an explanation, read Coates's essay or the summary I posted earlier. More importantly, there's precedent for the government taking responsibility for its actions: reparations to Japanese-Americans who had been placed in internment camps during WWII (signed into law by Ronald Reagan); reparations to victims of eugenics testing in North Carolina; reparations for the Tuskegee syphilis experiments; and reparations for the Rosewood, Florida massacre. All these situations are analogous to Coates's argument for reparations, and they all address the question of responsibility. As does Coates's essay.

    A question, by analogy. After World War II, West Germany agreed to pay reparations to Israel for the Holocaust. Some Germans had neither voted for nor supported Hitler. Some had even fought, in small and large ways, against them. Was Germany wrong to pay reparations because those individuals were not responsible?

    Your argument here is this: Person X argues for position Y; Person X is a hypocrite; therefore, position Y is invalid. That's illogical. In lieu of addressing the argument, you look to what I've done. I listed what I've done and admitted that I don't think it's enough; you responded by calling what I've done "nothing." booferama argues that reparations are necessary; booferama hasn't quit his job and given away half his property; therefore, reparations are invalid.

    Actually, it's not. "Weird" wasn't the best word, but it wasn't name-calling. Your argument, as I wrote above, is illogical. That doesn't mean you are illogical; it means your argument is illogical. Same with weird. You aren't weird, your logic is weird. But for you, at least in this argument, everything is personal: Al Gore (not a climate scientist) isn't perfectly consistent, so global warming isn't real. I called your argument weird, therefore I'm calling you weird.

    Yes, I already acknowledged that.

    And here's the final point, why arguing with you in this forum is so pointless. (Not a criticism of you, but of your argumentative style.) You write, "I ask 'what have you done'. Your reply is nothing." Actually, no: I made a list. You may evaluate those things as nothing, but the burden is then on you to explain why those things are nothing.

    Then you write, "I say go do something and you reply why." Again, that's not what I replied. I wrote that I want to do things and am willing to listen to reasonable, legitimate suggestions. So in that one paragraph above, you attribute things to me that simply aren't true.

    But here's the kicker: "I said, resign your position and give half of your wealth and I will listen. Does that make sense to you now. That is my standard as an individual. But, you won't do anything until I do it(taxes). That doesn't satisfy me." In your last post, you told me I needed to resign because I worked at a public university. I told you that, in fact, I don't work at a public university. Yet you're still claiming I should resign. Why? Can you make a logical case for that? Also, you again assert that I should give half my wealth. I asked why I should give half, a pretty obvious question. You never answered. Why half? Why is that your standard? Moreover, who should I give the money to? And then, of course, despite the fact that I asked for suggestions on how to act, you again claim that I "won't do anything until I do it."

    I'm open to logical arguments based on evidence. In the case of this thread, that means reading Coates's essay (or, in the case of your anti-virus software giving you a false positive, the summary I posted earlier) and responding to it. If you're not willing to do that, just ignore the thread.
  4. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

    Wow. You're so convinced he's wrong you don't need to read what he wrote. Because you know it will be clever. If you're so inoculated against his cleverness, why don't you read it? You're in no danger of being persuaded, so you're safe.

    Of course, you've demonstrated several times in this thread that you don't actually know his argument.
  5. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    I'd say the mapman lost that exchange. I guess the only way you can earn his respect Boof is to quit your job and start walking the walk. WTF :confused:
  6. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    I read it
    Lotta real estate swindles-recent because-clever guy-he is trying to show the recent connection-

    But at its core-it is Christian Theology (do good -make up for wrongs -turn other cheek) mixed with AA Philosophy(more christian "stuff")
    And he suggest this will somehow benefit US as a country
    Admitting that our government "did bad things"
    and paying the descendants-LOTS OF MONEY- our money- because of it
    Somehow will make us "better"
    Based on WHAT-
    You know-they crucified Jesus??
    Christians- don't actually act christian- they just pretend they do
    It is a BAD IDEA for a nation to act christian-pay folks for wrongdoings
    Acting weak-as a person-or a country-
    Gets you enslaved
    Those slaves- lost a battle-were captured after some skirmish
    and they were enslaved-basically because they were weak- relatively speaking
    Actually acting Christian-as a country-would get us wiped away.
    Countries are never "good"-they are armed entities formed for protection and economic gain-nothing to do with " doing good"
    Explains why we slaughtered the INDIANS- took their lands-
    Yeah-just look at history-countries aren't in the "doing good" business.
    And they only pay reparations-large reparations-when the lose
    And WW1>WW2- reparations caused WW2 to a large extent.

    The reparations you mention-TINY amounts- which is why no one cared to oppose them.
    When you are talking money-
    it is NEVER the principle of the thing
    It is ALWAYS the amount-HOW MUCH always matters

    But I read it-still not interested in giving my money to pay for wrongdoing by someone else-
    Clever stuff but in the end he is saying "it will make me feel better to pay reparations"

    The German Reparations to Israel-
    1)The perpetrators-WILL STILL ALIVE- those responsible for the camps-and the bankers-MOST survived the war. And their crimes-were much much worse in magnitude than the USA's misdeeds-100X worse.
    2)And the crimes were MORE DIRECTLY done by the national government
    3)All those Germans knew about it-the camps-the stench-the smoke-the trains arriving filled with people-year after year-filled-
    4)Duh-GERMANY LOST A WAR- they paid these AT THE POINT OF A GUN- Literally at GUNPOINT-the 10,000's of thousands of troops we stationed there-weren't to "protect the germans" what a joke-they were their to KEEP THE GERMANS FROM BEING GERMANS-and starting WW3
    5)And as I have said-the ARABS probably don't think those reparations are a resounding success!
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
  7. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    There you go again. Saying I am not responding thoughtfully. I take it as a put down. I fell I have responded thoughtfully.

    There is one big difference in this case. All of these reparations were considered to actual people that were wronged. If there was reparations to be paid it needed to be done soon after the fact, not 150 years later. I know you will come back and say racism is still going on to this day. Maybe you should take that up with the president.

    Actually you have this totally wrong. I did not use that logic. I did not say that reparations are invalid because of you. I don't think you read what I posted. I said I would not listen to you because you have no credibility. Not that reparations is invalid ( I don't think they are, but that is not the point I raised in that exchange).

    Come on, you used weird as a put down. Don't hide it, be honest. You didn't have to use that word. Even you said it was not the best word, you could have said something else. But weird has that negative connotation. I say it is a form of name calling, or call it a put down. You equate weird with illogical. They do not have the same connotation.

    I will try but maybe not up to your standards.

    I thought you were at a private university. My bad. I really doesn't make any difference for the point. Since you think racism is still going on to this day. You are occupying a position that someone who has been discriminated could hold. I am just suggesting you put your convictions to actual practice and resign to make way for someone (even to this day)that is currently being discriminated against.

    Does that logic meet your standards.

    It would be a real and genuine sacrifice for you. A form of putting your money where your mouth is.

    I thought I said, These are my standards. This is what would make me listen.

    You should give it to those who you claim were discriminated against. Those who are still the victims of racism today. You must know who they are.

    I am sorry if you can not handle discussing this with me. I am just a common man with limited mental skills. Not a top intellectual like yourself. Please be patient, as I admit I can not keep up with your mastery of discussion and logic.

    Maybe it is you who should ignore this thread.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
  8. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    That doesn't meet mine. Are you really saying you don't think racism is still going on today and supported by many government policies. Whites benefit from these policies, even you.

    Your only recourse for Boof is to quit his job. That is not logical, could be described even weird. :rolleyes:

    The latest Neo-Con meme is racism doesn't exist anymore. What a crock.
  9. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    Gee I don't know, you called out this entire thread as invalid and inappropriate. Nice approach. You've fulfilled your own prophecy.
  10. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    No I did not say racism is not going on today. I pointed out that he thinks so. Since he thinks racism is still going on, I just pointed out that he is occupying a position that someone who has been discriminated against could hold. I did not say racism is not going on today or imply such.
    If Boof would have came to us and said,
    I have just realized that we need to grant reparations. I am so convicted by this....
    1) I resigned my position so someone who was discriminated against could have it.
    2) I am giving half of my wealth to the ones discrimination victims because I got it unjustly.
    I would listen to everything he is saying. He may even convince me. Why, because he would have great credibility in my eyes. He would have actually put actions behind his words. Not just talk. Actually he wouldn't have to have done anything close to as dramatic as that. Just something meaningful and a genuine sacrifice. That puts credibility behind his beliefs.

    That is what I am trying to point out.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
  11. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    I was pointing out that Boof has only posted about political things for well over a year. I was wondering if it should be for the people who also talk about cars not just politics.
  12. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    I always considered booferama mostly about global warming and the environment. All within the "clean" part of CleanMPG. Some don't think that is just politics.
  13. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    And you are now repeating for 3rd or 4th time an illogical course for boof to take.
  14. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Which part is illogical. I truly don't see which part is illogical.
  15. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    The idea if boof quit his job it would get you even past your fear of opening the virus ridden site that my apparently inferior anti-virus program didn't see anything.

    Or that him quitting would further a course that could help since his replacement would be likely white, he can't dictate who gets his job.

    Poor guy (like the rest of us) already gives 50% of his money to government, going off neo-con meme.
  16. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Actually I didn't say that. "I said I would listen to everything he is saying." As far as the anti virus goes, my screen lit up, still does I just checked.

    I never said it would be guaranteed not to be white. I said "I just pointed out that he is occupying a position that someone who has been discriminated against could hold."
    So how is that illogical. I still don't see it. My point is if he would have done something like that or does something like that, I would listen. Why, because he would have great credibility in my eyes.
  17. worthywads

    worthywads Don't Feel Like Satan, I am to AAA

    It's becoming difficult to believe you can't see it. You are sticking to some credibility thing.

    Let's try again. Boof and anyone that wants to look into it sees that there is systemic racism that is at essentially all levels of government including things such as redlining, FHA and VA denial of equal treatment that should be address. You put a lot of weight into claiming that you think he as an individual would be credible if he quit his job to prove he wants to help in what is a Nationally created problem, not an individual problem created by boof.

    If you think boof needs to quit his job to get you to listen, your credibility is shot in my eyes with logic like that. You keep repeating your credibility test, which is pretty extreme, and wouldn't help at a national level. Your final solution is boof never has a job again since his next career opportunity would just displace another job a discriminated minority could hold.

    If you don't see that is an absurd demand then I'm can't help you understand.
  18. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member


    1)Who is the other Charlie- the one who called Boof a Troll??
    2)I'm usually Phoebe Isis here-names of our first two recycled greyhounds-and an easy handle to remember-and one no one else uses-anywhere
    3)So who ripped off my real name?
    4)I never use the term Troll-when I want to insult someone-I say what they are saying is childish, or laughable- never actually call them a name-not directly-really mild insults
    5)So who else is Charlie?? Best map??

    I read the Coates essay- as nearly as i can tell it will relieve me of WHITE GUILT,and somehow make us a better nation "making us more honest about our history"
    Honesty about past transgressions-in the sense that you rehash them-won't make us better in any way I can see?

    And-if we go for reparations-why NOT LEAVE-OR PAY RENT TO ALL THE INDIANS-
    The obvious next step is to pay rent to the Indians for the entire 3,500,000 sq miles?
    Or just turn it over to them??
    We probably directly killed maybe 100,000-500,000-but thru disease starvation probably killed 5,000,000 or so(pure guess)
    and that was MORE DIRECTLY Federal Government "sponsored"-far more than slavery.

    So is that next?

    My points-
    1)There is nothing positive for most USA-E-INS in paying reparations to blacks-nothing in it for me.
    2)And next logical step-LEAVE or pay reparations to indians

    Oh-why have Boof quit his job?
    How can he pay reparations if he isn't making any $$
    Yeah-that makes no sense-
    he should WORK HARDER- and give everything other than what is needed bare necessities
    to descendants of slaves-since I won't pay anything- he will have to make up for that shortfall.
    And he will have to due quadruple duty to pay the Indians

    Oh the Japanese camps- were a reasonable approach at the time-we locked up PLENTY of germans and german americans-many of the Japanese were't citizens or perhaps dual citizens-the father of the Return to Manzanar writer-wasn't a citizen-or at least he wasn't "just" a USA citizen
    And if we-USA- had lost that war-what do you think those Japanese USA-E-INS would have been doing??
    And the very likely possibility that other USA-E-INS would MURDER them-also was a good reason to intern them-
    German americans-wasn't obvious via eyeball-that they were german americans-Japanese Americans-pretty obvious
    So by the standards of the day-interning them-reasonable-
    and the Japanese-were MORE RACIST than we were
    And Black USA-E-INS probably are as racist as white USA-E-INS-granted they don't have the money or power for it to matter much-

    But if we give reparations to descendants of slaves-why not to Indians-hell we should LEAVE- or pay rent for the entire country!
  19. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    Almost right. It is for Boof, not anyone else. Why, because Boof came here and preached here. I said what have you done. He gave a list. I said it was essentially "nothing". I gave him a standard to meet. It is a very high standard. It is my standard for listening to him. How is that illogical. Yes I want him to walk to walk and not just talk the talk. Yes it is a high standard, but it is my standard maybe not yours. You may set your standard differently or not have one. I just like people to walk the walk if they talk the talk.

    OK, but my credibility is not an issue, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I gave Boof a standard for me to listen to him. I didn't include you in it. Granted it is a high standard. If you don't agree then that is up to you. If you want to listen to him go ahead.

    Actually I did not say that. I did not offer that as a solution, that is your interpretation. I will offer a solution now.

    Boof holds a high position compared to the discriminated people. If he believes in reparations so strongly, then I contend it would be meaningful and a genuine act to leave his position and take a position at the same level as the that the people he feels have been discriminated against. That way his high level position is freed up and available for someone who has been discriminated against(not guaranteed). That is my opinion.

    I admit it is a very high standard. I also think the paying reparations is equally absurd. So for me to listen to an absurd contention I am asking for a high level of commitment and credibility for the him(Boof) to be taken seriously be me. My standards are for him not anyone else. He is the one who came here preaching reparations to us. You may think it is an absurd demand, OK but it is not your standard it is mine.

    He comes here in this forum and starts preaching to us. I am just one of many voices. You seem to side with him. OK. Nobody may side with me. That is OK, I think it is still acceptable to voice ones opinion here. You may not agree with it and point out inconsistencies, OK if I am wrong on the facts so be it correct me. If my logic is wrong correct that, but so far I have refuted all the bad logic claims. But my opinions and in this case standards are mine and you can disagree with them if you choose but they are mine. Don't listen to me if you don't want to or point out where your opinion is different. I have challenged Boof on his credibility since he is the one making the assertions.
  20. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    No no no
    Boof needs to keep his job-perhaps get a second job-so he can pay those reparations and expiate the WHITE GUILT that Coates says will be relieved for reparations payers.

    So until the rest of us start chipping in-Boof and like minded people have to carry the load-
    IF they are actually serious about reparations
    So yeah I would like to see Boof make a small step in the right direction-and start paying HIS money-not mine-for those reparations he insists are due.
    Who knows-if he kicks in $5000/yr-it might motivate others to do the same.

    But yeah-he has to keep his job-and perhaps get a second job to pay what he feels he owes

    Now I voted for Obama-twice-but there is ZERO CHANCE I would ever favor reparations for descendants of former slaves-or Indians-ZERO

    I understand the impulse-people and their ancestors were mistreated-
    but so were the indians-
    If blacks get reparations-talking $100 of Billions
    then why not give them to the Indians-it would be EVEN MORE-whole darned country-3,500,000 square miles-what is the rent on that??

    Reparations are unworkable-and it is my money so zero chance I'm for them.
    Even if my ancestors were in on the misdeeds-I still wouldn't favor them.
    Fair has nothing to do with how the world works-
    If the world was fair-those folks wouldn't have been enslaved in the first place.
    The meek don't inherit the earth.

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