Mileage Gains Using Ethanol Seen 20% Higher Than EPA Says

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by JohnM, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. JohnM

    JohnM Well-Known Member

  2. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    For the vast majority of engines that just isn't possible. Reaping efficiency gains from high-octane fuel involves increasing the compression ratio, which is a mechanical modification. I could see designing an engine with fully variable valve timing (something like BMW's VANOS system) to change compression ratio via early or late intake valve closure. But that's far from a "tweak." That's a new engine technology.
  3. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    This is what usually happens when the peeps realize that they have been getting scammed.

    The problem is you can tell us all you want how a software upgrade can improve the fuel mileage 20% but in reality you can't magically change the physics and chemistry of the lower BTU's in Ethanol over straight gas.

    I lose five miles per gallon in my Prius with E10 over straight gas. The Volvo loses three miles per gallon on the highway over straight gas. :mad:

    Looks like the public is finally figuring out they're getting lower fuel mileage with E10 over straight gas. Not hard when they are screaming at the dealer that their vehicle can't get EPA and the dealer is blaming the ethanol in the fuel. If the EPA was testing with E10 instead of straight gas the lower fuel mileage with E10 would be kept hidden from the average consumer.
  4. rfruth

    rfruth Well-Known Member

  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Rapt Presence Staff Member

    If that's the case, there is something seriously awry: assuming you're getting around 50 mpg, 10% ethanol dilution is dropping your mpg 10%.
  6. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yep straight gas use to get me right around 50 mpg's and now I average around 45-46 mpgs.

    At 65 mph max in my Volvo on trips to Florida I use to get 29.5-29.75 mpg on straight gas, now I'm lucky to get 27 mpg. The first time I saw it happen was when I stopped at a Pilot gas station in SC. right before the I-26/I-95 split for fuel. From that stop to Naples I was only getting mid 26 mpg. That was my first taste of E10 gas. Didn't find out until the return trip when I stopped at the same station on the way back North only to notice the Ethanol sticker on the pump. :(

    It isn't the ethanol that is killing the fuel mileage it is the H2O that it attracts like a magnet that is killing the fuel mileage. In the bad old days gas stations use to have to check for water in their storage tanks weekly. That doesn't happen much any more because the Ethanol in the gas keeps the condensation in the tanks in check. If there is any water in the tank it will bind with the Alcohol molecules and get pumped right out with the gas and get burned in the customers car. Thus why most cars lose much more than theoretical 3% in fuel mileage.

    Five gallons of H2O condensation will easily get absorbed into a thousand gallons of E10.

    You may pump 10 gallons of E10 into your tank and you assume it's 90% gasoline 10% alcohol. It is more likely its make up is 89.5% gas 10% alcohol .5% water.
  7. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    You can have any E85 car you want. But don't you dare complain about the cost of any food product derived from corn.
    And enjoy your $hitty fuel economy.
  8. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Burning corn in cars affects not only the prices of (generally low nutritional quality) "food products derived from corn," but also prices of other crops that could've been grown on the same land.
  9. The Doctor

    The Doctor Old Dude, New Car

    I think most of us who are somewhat 'AWARE' know that there is not as much pure energy in Alcohol as there is in pure Gasoline.
    But be that as it may, at least here in FL, we have no choice but to use what's in the local gas station's tanks.
    And that is gasoline, with UP TO 10% Ethanol. The key there is "UP TO" and not "Absolutely".
    So that gas could actually only contain 1% Ethanol and still be legal. Eh?

    I was sort of glad, years ago, when Gasahol first showed up at the pumps in Illinois.
    As was so well mentioned earlier, the alcohol has an attraction for water and it mixes as well as in a bar drink. In Ill. frozen fuel lines were a big thing, in the winter, till the advent of Gasahol.
    Then frozen fuel lines became a thing of the past.
    Yeah, the MPG went down a little, but that sure beat tow-truck charges and down time, while the car was towed someplace where the fuel lines could be thawed out.

    But he who claims that ethanol will increase the MPG of any car, is either badly deluded, or is just plain a liar. I'd rather think, just misinformed.

    Someone mentioned VVT (Variable Valve Timing). We have that now on the Kia Soul.
    My little Soul 1.6L engine can get an easy 35mpg Plus on a road trip. Not so good with city driving. That's an average, and at times it can go up into the forties, easily.

    Y'all should recognize this's my Scan Gauge II.

    Even here in FL, we can get condensation in our gas tanks, with cool nights and hot days.
    I'll keep my Gasahol, thank you very much. It can just eliminate so many problems.

    I also have DFI (Direct Fuel Injection) which has been known to cause carbon buildup around the fuel injectors, since they are actually in the combustion chamber.

    Kia recommends a shot of Techron fuel system additive, injector cleaner, every 3-5k.
    I put one in with every oil change, at the 3k interval. My little Soul, just runs GREAT!

    Cheers mates! Nice thread!

    The Doctor :cool:
  10. some_other_dave

    some_other_dave Well-Known Member

    Small point: The carbon buildup that is seen in lots of DFI cars is in the intake valve ports and on the back side of the valves. This happens in large part because oil vapor from inside the crankcase is drawn through the intake to be burned in the engine, and a little of it winds up on the port walls and the valves. In older port-injection cars, that area is constantly blasted by sprays of gasoline, which washes the carbon off the port walls and valves. DFI cars don't have those sprays in the intake port, so the gunk just keeps building up.

    I'm very happy that my MINI is not one of the DFI models, as they have a significant problem with carbon build-up.

  11. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    Not only that, but other things that use corn for food, like beef, bacon, chicken, eggs, etc.
  12. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    This probably why Toyota (Scion) uses a combination of direct and port injection.
    Time will tell if it's a good idea , but in Toyota I trust.
  13. The Doctor

    The Doctor Old Dude, New Car

    The problem, with DFI on the Soul, is NOT the buildup on the valves, it's the buildup around the injectors themselves. The Techron takes care of that.

    DFI is used because it DOES provide improved performance. If that were not the case, I'm pretty sure they would not use it. It doesn't require a lot of research to come up with the same answer.

  14. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    I lose 2 MPG highway in my 98 K1500, and 4-8 MPG in the Escape Hybrid when using ethanol blends. I try to avoid ethanol whenever possible.
  15. The Doctor

    The Doctor Old Dude, New Car

    Well, bad news..... you won't avoid ethanol here in FL.

    Every bit of automotive fuel must contain Ethanol, by law.

    It's kind of like.......Well I'll not go there. lol

    Y'all have a great day now, Y'hear?

    The Doctor :cool:
  16. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    Is this something new? I usually don't have a problem getting ethanol free fuel when visiting Florida.
  17. The Doctor

    The Doctor Old Dude, New Car

    So when and where did you last visit?

    In most small towns there is NONE at all. In larger towns there may be one or two stations that have it, but it's illegal for you to pump it into a car and you may have to drive several extra miles to find it. It's for off road use only, and it's also pretty dang expensive, way more than regular gasoline, with ethanol. Why bother? It's counter productive.

    I really don't understand your argument. :confused: Except for the sake of argument itself. Eh?

  18. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    I usually visit the Daytona Beach area a couple times a year. I was last down for Bike Week this spring. Yeah, its expensive, but the bike runs so much better on ethanol free. At the ethanol free pump at the GATE stations in the St. Augustine area it says "For motorcycles and classic vehicles" on the pump. I filled up my FEH there once, nobody said anything to me about it.
  19. aca2983

    aca2983 Well-Known Member

    I'd also be curious to know where Escape purchases non-ethanol gas in Northern Virginia. I've never seen any.
  20. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    There's a couple Liberty stations in and around Winchester, VA that carry it. They charge $0.10/gal over 87 E10, so its economical, and I'm in that area every 7-15 days, so I can buy most of my fuel while out there.

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