'13 C-Max Energi

Discussion in 'Ford Hybrids' started by GaryG, May 5, 2013.

  1. jdk2

    jdk2 Member

    Ethanol added to gas reduces its energy content and will lower your mpg by about 3-5% according to the EPA.
  2. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    I just got my manual out and it says minimum 87 octane. What exactly does your manual say? Minimum, maximum or ?
  3. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    It's always a minimum, because a higher rating doesn't hurt.
  4. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    I hope this works out for you. I'd be curious if there is a charge for this.
    Also, would it be wrong, since the fuel is in the car, to drive it on gas once a week or so to use it up?
    How many miles do you estimate you have put on the gas engine?
  5. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    There is a charge for the dealer to drain the tank for less than an hour or $100. I will get ~10 gal of E10 the dealer already paid for at delivery. That's about $35 in gas for my Explorer.

    It would be best to take one long trip to burn off the tank, than small trips under 30 miles. Smaller trips contaminate the engine oil with gas, moisture and hydrocarbons (oil degradation). As long as I use my Energi as a EV, and always have fresh gas and oil for those times I must run the engine to make it to a charger, it will be a low maintenance vehicle. I want the engine new when I sell the car and I will have documentation at that time.

    I have 4,372.7 miles on my Energi today. There is a total 4,195.4 miles in EV, and 187.3 miles with the engine running (no estimate). I used a total of 7.87 gallons of E10, which included picking up my Energi about 165 miles away with no charging and all highway miles from Opopka FL. The gas tank was filled again by my dealer on delivery, so that's why my lifetime gas used is 7.87 gallons. I took delivery in mid May 2013, so my gas (E10) is now 10 months old. My lifetime MPG is 555.1, and my MPGe is 126.8 today. I've used a total of 896 KWh so far.

    My manual says the recommended octane is 87, not a minimum of 87 octane. My two other Ford Hybrids said the same thing in their manuals. I will not purchase a car with a minimum 87 octane written in the manual. That wording is a dead give away that higher octanes will perform better.

  6. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    How often is the oil change interval on your Energi?
  7. CmaxVsPrius

    CmaxVsPrius Moderator

    Personally, I don't really want to buy a car that's three years old with 20000 road miles and only has 300 miles on the engine. Something in my naive brain tells me that the engine might actually be under stress when it runs so few miles over such a long time period.

    But my CMax Energi might end up in a situation similar just not as extreme. Unless I start using the car from longer interstate trips, I'll probably end up with about 1000 miles ICE for every 5000 miles EV. I tend to take a few 100 mile trips a month which is why the ICE runs.

    As for the gas, I'm curious why don't you just siphon it out? It just needs a hose and a little suction.
  8. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    Some vehicles have anti-siphoning devices, maybe the C-Max has one.
  9. CmaxVsPrius

    CmaxVsPrius Moderator

    Yeah, it has a capless fuel valve. Gotta use a special plastic funnel to pour gas in from a gas can.
  10. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    There is a max 20,000 mile two year requirement to change the engine oil. However, there is a "Oil Maintenance Mode" (OMM) where the computer counts cold starts, oil temperature, length of time the engine is running and contaminants in the PCV system. Because a plug-in hybrid can be used for many short trips, with many cold engine starts, the oil must be closely monitored. During a cold start, large amounts of unburned gas and moisture can enter the crankcase around seals and rings through blow-by. In cold weather, the problem is worst. The people here that do key-off P&G need to know how this can effect oil contamination and cause engine damage.

    In order to prevent oil degradation, the PCV system recirculates these contaminants into the intake system to remove them from the engine crankcase and re-burn them to clean the oil. Ford's patented OMM prevents EV for about 30 miles to properly heat the engine and oil to clean the contaminants with the PCV system. Many Energi owners have experienced OMM within the first month of ownership and throughout this past cold winter. My weather is not that cold, and I stay in EV mode most of the time and have never went into OMM. The only way to stop OMM and go EV again, is to allow the engine to operate till the oil is clean, or change the oil.

  11. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    Not only does the Energi have a cap-less system, it has a sealed gas tank. When you push the gas button below the Nav system, the PCM activates a vacuum pump to purge the gas vapors in the tank and release the pressure. The vaor seal valve and refill door will not open until the vapors are cleaned and the pressure is relieved. This is part of a new emission to seal off gas vapors while in EV. There is no way to siphon gas in our Energi through the fill tube.

    Here is the Ford patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US20...a=X&ei=i_4DU8ztDpXMsQSmyICwDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

  12. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    Thank You for the explanation. I learned something from you today.
    I think different than you on 87 E-10 vs: 91 octane E-0 fuel and my personal experiences with it, and I would just drive the fuel out instead of have dealer pump it out. That said, I feel you have thought this out well and have your reasons from your experiences. Please let us know how it goes.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  13. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    It turned out that the dealer could not turn on the fuel pump with his computer, so he couldn't pump out the gas. It was no charge for trying so nothing lost but our time.

    My wife wanted to take the grand kids to Sea World Thursday, so we took the Energi up the Turnpike to burn off the gas. We left with a full charge, but that one charge was it for the trip. I averaged 44mpg round trip and that dropped my lifetime 560mpg to 318mpg. The tank is now just below 1/4 of a tank, so I should have a 5,000 mile first tank when it's all said and done. I will only add one gallon of fresh 87 octane E10 at a time from now on, and I suspect I'll go at least 20,000 miles or more on 14 gallons (which is one tank) in the future. I'll just change the oil every two years per the manual.

    I have a 18' 6" Boston Whaler with a 63 gallon tank in the garage, so I rigged an electric fuel pump and long fuel line to transfer E10 into my cars before it gets stale also. Just filled up my Explorer (17 gal) with it today, and I'll fill my daughter's Honda Civic next. I'll drain all that E10 out and fill with fresh E10 before hurricane season. I like to have spare gas in my boat in case of a bad hurricane when gas is not available. I put a Honda 150 4 stroke on my boat in April of 2010, and it runs great on E10 and gets the best mileage I've ever seen for an outboard.

    Don't get me wrong, I hate ethanol. I'm just not going to spend $1.50 more per gallon for 90 octane E0 when my cars recommend 87 octane. I'll use the 90 octane E0 in my lawn tools because of the repairs caused by the ethanol. I was flat out mad when Florida mandated E10 in May of 2008.

  14. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    Would you pay 77 cents a gallon more? I looked up on pure-gas.org and the Shell station on 400 W Indiantown Rd in Jupiter has non-ethanol for $4.49 per gal. vs: 3.72 for regular. I called them to verify. Since you will be buying 1 gallon at a time and that might help it from going bad on you.
  15. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    I would not even pay 77 cents a gallon more to Big Oil for clean gas except for my lawn tools. Ethanol is a scam, but so is charging more for straight gas. I'd rather plug-in, but if that becomes more of a scam, I'll go solar or turbine. I would not own my Explorer if I didn't need a tow vehicle for my boat.

    I have my Energi under my control now, so why would I spend more money changing to 90 octane that would screw up my long term fuel maps and reduce my MPG? You need to research fuel and KAM, not ridiculous fuel cost Big Oil is trying to get from us.

  16. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    I have researched fuel and done my own tests on E-0 . Every time on multiple tanks I have got higher mileage by a wide margin. My 90 octane E-0 costs 11 cents a gallon more.
    Why would Wayne,the owner of this site, map out his fuel stops using E-0 if it did not give him better results?

    How does it screw up long term fuel maps? Doesn't the car computer constantly adjust for different fuel?

    The reason you would spend extra money for 90 octane E-0 is you use so little fuel it may go bad on you and 77 cents a gallon might save you a high repair cost in the future. I don't have the data in front of me , but I think E-10 starts deteriorating in weeks and E-0 is good for many months. In your climate with heat and humidity, that would concern me.
  17. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    Anytime you change octane or ethanol content, even from E0 to E10, your long term fuel maps must adjust the air/fuel mixtures to that gas quality. Engine load at every RPM is mapped out and stored in the PCM in KAM (Keep Alive Memory) so that the computer doesn't have to constantly relearn air/fuel mixtures. This increases MPG with more efficient learned long term fuel maps. Short term air/fuel ratios turn into long term fuel maps to complete efficient operation.

    Example: I ran 87 octane E10 in my Explorer since new. While on vacation, I stopped at a gas station that only sold straight gas. I filled-up with straight 87 octane and headed home. My MPG had a sudden drop in MPG of about 2-3mpg. After about using a little over 1/4 tank, my MPG was back to normal. After I used 1/2 a tank, my MPG started getting 2-3mpg better than the E10. Another example: My '05 Escape Hybrid dropped about 6mpg before I made it down the road one mile after filling-up. Before Florida mandated E10, some gas stations were selling E10 without marking the pumps. For years, I had to find out the hard way which gas stations were doing this. I filled-up one time and seen this big drop in MPG and thought I got E10, but it wasn't. I looked at the sales slip and noticed I had filled-up with 91 octane by mistake. Going from 87 octane to 91 octane (both straight gas) lowered my MPG. It wasn't as bad as E10, but I learned a lessen that day.

    I understand that straight gas will last much longer than gas with ethanol, that is why I'm limiting E10 to one gallon at a time in my Energi. I don't see the need to change octane to get straight gas however. In your case, the TCH get better MPG with higher octane, and we all agree straight gas is much better than having ethanol mixed with it. I'm also sure Wayne will chime in if he disagrees.

  18. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    I've used 14.9 gallons of gas in 5513.7 miles since my Energi rolled off the assembly line one year ago. I'm still on the dealer's gas because I drove to Opopka to pick it up at that Mullinax dealership and bring it back to the Lake Park Mullinax to close the deal. My salesman topped off the tank again for delivery. I had a lifetime MPG of 560mpg and 126 MPGe before I decided to just burn off the year old Gas to less than a 1/4 of a tank. That reduced my lifetime MPG to 318mpg and 112 MPGe after the highway trip. With a OD of 5513.7 miles, I now have 370.1mpg and 118.8 MPGe lifetime. I could have waited for the gas to get to 18 months old to burn the old gas off, but it was better for the engine and oil to do it then. Old ethanol forms varnish that can cause sticky valve damage, and I didn't want that.

    This means I will still need to use about 3.5 gallons of old E10 within 6 months. I can get recreational non-ethanol 90 octane a little (1 gal) at a time to freshen that old E10 up till I'm out of the woods. I reset the oil maintenance count by taking the long trip, and expect to make it 2 years before my first free oil change by my dealer.

    If all goes as planned, I should have a 999.9mpg Lifetime when I reach 20,000 miles.

  19. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    Ford is now giving a $775 goodwill check to owners of the 2013 and 14 C-Max Energi for lowering EPA estimates. https://media.ford.com/content/ford...s-fuel-economy-ratings--for-six-vehicles.html

    Nice to get the $775 coming and find out now I more than doubled the new EPA rating of a 19 mile EV range already with 39.6 miles. Today, I have a 381.2 lifetime MPG average and 120 MPGe lifetime average with 5,680 miles on the OD. Still have not bought any gas and have a little less than 1/4 of a tank the dealer gave me. Still getting free battery charges at my wife's work and my Ford Dealer, so this car has cost me very little with the car $4,007 tax credit and $500 credit for my 40amp Leviton home charger. Got the Energi with the Ford X-Plan plus $750 cash coupon from Ford and now $775 more coming is great.

  20. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    I had my windows tinted last year, and it helped keep the interior cooler. I got a windshield screen to block out the heat further when I park for the Energi, but what a pain that was to put it up and down and store. I finally went back to Tint King and had the clear tint Air Blue put on my windshield, and what a big difference that made in everything. That huge C-Max windshield is now keeping my Energi cool for $129. All of a sudden the Energi interior heat went from feeling like a hot day to night. Think about how it feels in a car sitting in the hot sun all day, and how it feels parked in the shade all day. Now think about how much KWh it takes to cool a heat soaked cabin and bring down the temperature of a hot battery before you even start your trip. You can't, once the battery gets hot, it takes 8 hours over a cool night to cool the battery.

    If there is a hypermiling technique you can do with $129, save the interior, prolong the life of your battery, increase your range and keep yourself cool at the same time, this is it. Those of you who have summers like me, this is the best recommendation I can give you.


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