Poll: Do You Think America Should Dissolve

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by bestmapman, Nov 12, 2012.


Do you think the US should split up.

Poll closed Dec 12, 2012.
  1. Yes, I think the US should split up

    4 vote(s)
  2. No, the US should not split up

    25 vote(s)
  1. Paymaster

    Paymaster Well-Known Member

    Okay, I just typed out this big long post and it disappeared because I got logged out while I was typing. Why is that?

    The short version is why are people so angry? There have always been disagreements about policies and there always will be but this kind of anger seems new and I don't understand why. Spending has increase under every president. It increased quite a lot under the last president. Other presidents have decreased defense spending(so far though it is higher now than it was when President Obama came into office). Obamacare is an almost exact clone of what Governor Romney did in Mass. and was originally an idea that came from the Heritage Foundation. Something about personal responsibility. Taxes have been raised many times before, even under President Reagan.

    So really, nothing has been different. Why are people so angry now?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  2. booferama

    booferama He who posts articles

  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paymaster and Booferama:

    Good for the both of you and I say that in the kindest of ways.

    My anger stems from the fact my wife wants to buy a second home in CA "before" we sell this one which means well over a $million in homes and over half a $million mortgage. If the wind even changes direction, I could lose 30 years of my effort and she wants what she wants yesterday... I am the staunchly conservative Democrat while she is the wildly liberal Republican Christian right with the Laissez-faire attitude that whatever is destined to occur is going to happen anyway so just let it happen :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Adding, I make a pound of spaghetti and the noodles turn into soup. I watch American Masterpiece on PBS about the life and times of Woodie Guthrie. Possibly the most creative individual that ever walked the face of the earth and was crippled by Huntington's disease which allows the mind to continues to be just as active but the body malfunctions to the point nothing can come out. Tear jerking sad :ccry:

    I walk back up to my desk with a Pepsi in hand, set it down on my credenza and it rolls off and explodes on my carpeted floor. With 15-minutes to clean that up, I have a dry towel on the floor where my feet go and am wondering what the hell is going to happen next? Whatever it is is anyone's guess but it has got to get better than that :D :D :D

    Good to see the poll is at 19 to 3 now!

    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  4. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks guys for reminding me on the Glass-Steagall Act. Getting old, too many hours at work and not enough sleep. Wouldn't have mattered I still totally forgot about it. :rolleyes:
  5. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Well it looks like this secession movement is getting some wheels on it. All 50 states have now petitioned the U.S. government to leave the union. We'll have to see if it continues to grow, if the Congress and the Executive branch don't pay attention they could have a nightmare on their hands. White-House-secede-petitions-reach-660000-signatures-with-all-50-states-participating/

    All the states have to do strip away the federal governments ability to tax their citizenry.

    The states collect all the SSI, medicare as well as fuel taxes and send a percentage of say 25% of all the taxes collected to Washington for defense and paying down the debt. The state as an individual takes over their own SSI and Medicare payments to their citizens cutting out all the waste and bureaucracy in the system.

    Each state is now responsible for their own schools, highways, and general well being.

    Once this happens the idiots we elected, are in heap deep doo doo because they no longer have he power to tax and hand out goodies for votes. They are now beholden to the states as a whole for any funding of federal projects. The feds would still be able to tax and tariff imports and exports but income taxes from individuals and corporations would stay inside the states borders. We toss the sixteenth and seventeenth amendments. And if we do let the federal government collect an income tax it is capped at no more than a five to ten percent flat tax. This will end the life time job opportunities in Washington as an eight term senator or twenty term congressman will be something talked about that happened in the bad old days. The real money involved in politics stays in the states not K Street in Washington DC.

    50 individual economic laboratories ,that will very quickly show us which type of political and economic model works best. If you want to see a perfect working example of this look at the European Union. Those who run a tight ship with spending are succeeding and those countries that like to blow money buying votes greasing the palms of the different political groups are going under very quickly. Same thing will happen here when the politician in that small group of free spending high taxing states that can no longer rely on Federal funding to balance their budgets. This system would make people accountable at the state level where they can be removed from office much easier than some unknown entrenched bureaucrat in Washington.
  6. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    That is actually very compelling. Not perfect but definitely an interesting concept.
  7. CRT1

    CRT1 Newbie McNewbster

  8. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    CRT1 you should see what Hollande has done to the what was left of the French economy.
    The economists in France are now looking at a major drop off in their GDP over the near future. Comparing the new Hollande economy which has cut nothing and raised taxes on everyone and especially those evil rich people, has become an economic disaster that will drop France below Spain and Italy in competitiveness in the next year or two. Unemployment is jumping every month since he took office. Yep President Hollande and the socialist parties get the rich campaign has really work out for them. :rolleyes: Unemployment has climbed above 10% and continuing to rise. And poor Sarkozy the previous President was demonized for only having Frances average annual growth at 1.68 % in the last year of his administration. Once the polls turned against him and the public realized what was about to come their way with Hollande, growth dropped to .4 for the first quarter, .25 for the second quarter and now it is at 0 and expected to drop off a cliff as they say in the forth quarter.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  9. southerncannuck

    southerncannuck Well-Known Member

    But Hollande wants to raise the top tax to 75%, not an increase of 4% to 39%. Those aren't really comparable.
  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Al:

    Regarding Europe, the EU was engineered by the Germans to keep a common currency down for them. There was no doubt the only two business oriented countries in Europe were the UK and Germany. Without a freely floating currency (Mark), they were free to sell their goods within the common currency framework without ever having to worry about a strong German Mark reducing their competitiveness.

    It is one of the problems with the EU from the start. Greece, Portugal, Italy and now France could not allow their currency's to "float" down by comparison. Do you have any idea how much a BMW, MB or VW would cost today if the Mark was still German's currency unit? Easily double whereas Fiat's from Italy would be dirt cheap. Without the float, the lesser countries were going to be harmed long term and the strongest (Germany) was only going to be helped which is exactly what occurred.

    The UK did not enter into the common “Euro” framework although they are loosely tied to the regulatory structure. As their currency devalued from over 2 pounds to the USD to 1.6 today, it allowed them to remain competitive. The Greek drachma, Italian lira, Portuguese escudo and now French franc cannot (they do not exist) and thus those countries were not offered that luxury by being locked into the Euro currency float. Even today with the fall of the Euro, Germany again benefits with the highest productivity and strength but a currency held in check by the PIGSF.

    There is a downside to this for Germany as well. Not only are they being forced to carry much of the bill for the continuing bailouts, they do have to be concerned that a low Euro would make their companies prime for the taking as well. There is some mechanism within Germany to prevent this as was seen when Porsche was the highest valued corporation in the world for a period during the VW transition but I know little about this?

    What keeps our currency down? We print so damn much of the stuff! Japan years ago decided to reduce US Bond purchases with their foreign trade surplus'. In doing so, they collected dollars and repatriated them back to Yen. The process continues even to this day and their currency is so overvalued now their corporations are barely able to remain competitive without Government assistance.

    China is in the predicament now to. Do they continue to buy US bonds or US companies/land to balance their Yuan or stop and allow their currency to skyrocket causing disruptions in their short, intermediate and long term plans? As in losing the country from over a billion people rising up.

    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  11. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    And what is the average French PAID VACATION?
    Average age of population
    average hours per working week for full time workers
    USA workers are the most productive in the world
    No comparison with France
    ZERO chance USA will break up
    It was tried--under the guise of STATES RIGHTS in 1861

    The playbook then-rich folks(planters) getting gullible poor folks to die for them-for their right to use THEIR PROPERTY as they wished
    Nothing like now of course

    nothing to do with black people
    nothing to do with the south
  12. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    No free lunch-not for countries-or anyone else-Chinese have a rough time ahead
    I used to buy motorcycle parts from GB~ 1998
    I would have sworn a Pound was worth about $1.50 then?? Not the other way around?
    About the same time a Euro was worth 83 cents so I got a great deal when I sent a head to be machined in France(Krautergershine-strange name for French city)
    Pretty sure the Euro went to maybe $1.40 or so several years(5-7) later
    Long time ago-getting old-so could be wrong about that(not the Euro but the pound)
  13. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    1. I know it is at least four weeks and heard in some cases up to six weeks.
    2. Probably close to the U.S. but the fertility rate continues to drop and is below population replacement level for the French.
    3. Full time is 35 hours not 40 like here in the U.S. They were 40 hours then the Socialists said hey we can create more jobs it we lower the number of hours in an employees work week. They figured some one with seven eight employees would have to hire another employee to cover the lost hours. The businesses just left the same number of employees on the payroll and cut the hours they are in business and to compensate for the lower productivity they raised prices.
    4. No argument there no one can compete with the average American worker when it comes to productivity.

    It isn't how much they raises taxes it is how the average person reacts physiologically on the tax increase.
  14. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    So they work too little- 35hrs/wk- with 4-6 weeks paid vacation
    no wonder they have problems
    and pretty sure they have universal healthcare
    wonder what retirement age is?

    with an aging population
    except for not very french acting muslims
    our immigrants fit in -their main immigrants are muslims
  15. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Hollande promised if he was elected he would drop the retirement age from 62 to 60 which he did. The only thing the French going for them is they do not have the elderly population like we do over 65. One of the consequences of WWII and the German occupation.

    Here is where the big problem is they also have a baby boomer population who are starting to retire and it is going kill their future budgets. The other is their society is pretty much so intertwined with government payments that it is almost impossible to ever fix the system.
    I read on the NY Times website that made the point half the people in France make less than 19,000€ or just above minimum wage. With their cost of living that would have the average family living in poverty. They don't because pretty much everyone in the country is getting a check of some sort.

    Remember 35 hour weeks and Minimum wage is 9.22€.

    Here is the NYTimes story on it. Frances-les-riches-vow-to-leave-if-75-tax-rate-is-passed
  16. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Id the euro still $1.40 or so???
    Was when last I looked years ago.

    Very different countries
    People in the USA EXPECT to worker harder and longer than that
    and folks on welfare-EXPECT to live like poor people
    and they do
    If you don't work-you aren't getting enough on your GOV check to do much more than get by
    Now if you have someone scamming disability+ other GOV checks-you will be slightly above poor
    Yeah-we have entitlements about right-not a happy life on welfare
  17. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    It's trading at $1.28 today. In the last few months it has bounced between $1.35 and $1.22.
  18. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    660000 signatures, what is that, 0.5% of the people that voted?
  19. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Like I said don't get nervous until you start see numbers climbing towards 10 to 15 million then it's a Houston we have a problem situation.
  20. ILAveo

    ILAveo Well-Known Member

    I would go by emigration to Canada or other countries.

    This country has plenty of whiny blowhards, see Limbaugh, Rush.

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