MPG Increase - Non-Ethanol Gas - What to Expect?

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by Mightymouse13, May 9, 2012.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Ever since Gary was reporting the drastic reductions in FE when using E10 in his FEH, I feel for FEH owners in particular. While most cars take a hit, E10 in the FEH is simply whacky in terms of the noticeable FE loss.

    litesong likes this.
  2. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    On my FEH, with E0 I can get up to about 36 MPG easily, depending on the places I have to go that week. With E10 in the tank, I have to fight and hypermile my butt off to keep it from dipping below 28 MPG. On top of that, E10 screws up my fuel maps, and generally my mileage will be below my average for at least 1,000 miles.
    litesong likes this.
  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 2010 Prius (CAN Touring) Staff Member

    ^ I can't get my head around this (maybe just an anomily for Escape hybrid??):

    If a 10% additive is reducing your mileage by 20~25%, why the hell are we doing this, LOL.
  4. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Is your government as wacky as ours , mandating 10-15% ethanol ?
    I'd have to drive 75 miles to buy E0. It's not even "on the way" to anywhere.
    I did buy a tank in Iowa a few years ago , and noticed about a 7% increase in MPG , but it was hard to measure it accurately (one way,wind,etc.). I'm just trying to do my best with the crappy corn squeezin's I can buy locally.
    litesong likes this.

    CPLTECH Well-Known Member

    I found that using MotorKote Fuel Optomizer [1 oz per 10 gal] lowered my “LFT” reading by one point. Also found that Exxon/Mobil fuel did likewise. So there must be some chemical that counteracts the negatives of ethanol.

    Quote from MotorKote website:
    Fuel quality from just a few years ago has deteriorated. The introduction of lower octane substitutes, increased ethanol and fuel falling out of solution has left drivers with an uneasy feeling at the pump. Most fuels are manufactured to “generally good performance in most cars”.
    MOTORKOTE fuel optimizer was formulated to off-set the diminishing quality of fuel and remove harmful deposits that rob your injectors of power and performance. Helps your fuel burn CLEANER AND HOTTER for better fuel economy and performance.

    Another site I have no experience with:
  6. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Since EPA keeps raising the percentage of ethanol in our nation's gasoline supplies, companies have to resort to stink like this, to have enough 100% gasoline to dump ethanol into, so the percentage doesn't go over 10%. ha ha ha Bet a fair share of pumps marked for 10% ethanol blends are 11% or 12% or.........

    Bet fuel-testors would know!

    Pretty soon, you'll have to pump your own ethanol-free gasoline.......... I mean really pump it, just like that old-time Kerosene pump.
  7. The Doctor

    The Doctor Old Dude, New Car

    I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll say it again.

    I've never seen any gas pump that says "this fuel contains 10% Ethanol", but....
    what they actually say is "this fuel may contain up to 10% Ethanol".
    The key words there are "may" and "UP TO".
    So legally, that same fuel might contain only 1% Ethanol. Eh?

    I have no way, of measuring the actual Ethanol content of any gas I put in my car. I don't know of anyone who does. So, we all just assume that "it's in there".
    Just like the additives that some Gasoline's brag about having.
    Techron fuel system cleaner, in Chevron's gas, for instance.

    Kia recommends adding Techron to our gas tank every 3 - 5 k miles, to clean the DFI fuel injectors. I'd rather do that than trust the gasoline to clean my injectors. Eh?

    NON-Ethanol Gas? It can be had, for a price, but NOT for use in anything that uses the state roads. That would actually be illegal.

    Cheers Mates!
  8. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    Actually, there is a way to measure the actual content. With a graduated cylinder/container and starting with a known amount of water, you can come pretty darn close to finding out how much alcohol is in the gas. I have heard reports of 30%+ being measured due to the fact that the alcohol is added after the fuel is pumped into the container; if it's not completely empty, then adding the next "dose" of alcohol would raise the overall %. Then, there is also the practice of adding more alcohol to the gas to make the amount of gas to appear higher, but that is a whole other story that never happens...right?;):p
    litesong likes this.
  9. The Doctor

    The Doctor Old Dude, New Car

    Generally speaking, Alcohol is more expensive than plain gasoline.
    So it's NOT to the advantage of the oil companies to put in any more ethanol than is required by law. Eh?

  10. some_other_dave

    some_other_dave Well-Known Member

    The measurement is simple; you can figure out for yourself how much ethanol is in there. If less, then it's probably due to the price as you state. If more, then the next question is (or could be) why?

  11. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Often posted in fossil-fuel vehicle forums, comments mention the diametrically opposite interests between oil & "ethanol in gasoline" industries over the issue of ethanol blending. However, oil companies LIKE ethanol in their gasoline. Many times it is mentioned that nearly 1 gallon (more?) of oil is needed to produce 1 gasoline of ethanol. What is clear is that lots of oil is used to produce ethanol. PLUS, lots of oil is burned blending ethanol into gasoline, to support the "ethanol in gasoline" industry, & transport ethanol blends to your local gas station. & finally, adding only 10% ethanol to gasoline reduces mpg by 8%, 7%, & 5% compared to E0.

    It is obvious, that the "ethanol in gasoline industry" uses more(MUCH MORE?) oil, than ethanol can ever save, when used(not burned efficiently) in gasoline engines. Yeah, the oil industry loves the "ethanol in gasoline industry".
  12. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    So does the Gov't. Motor vehicle fuels are taxed by the gallon, and any additive that reduces mileage basically equates to a hidden tax.
    litesong likes this.
  13. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Updates: With the 2013 Elantra now with another family member(very happy), we bought another Elantra, a 2016, same color, with a 6spd manual tranny. Some of the same results: great mpg, excellent reliability. Some differences: my wife loves it; tho the paint is the same, our 2016 is deeper & with more metal flake(sweet), the electric steering is better & the engine is smoother & quieter. Our longer trip got much for bad-mouth complainers, who got Hyundai to lower its EPA mpg from 40 to 38.

    Oh, yeah, has 10,089 listings for 100% gasoline......
  14. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Now gasoline(oil) is cheaper than ethanol-right??
    The gasoline corporations aren't REQUIRED to use ethanol

    So shell 87 octane that "can" have 10% ethanol
    Does it actually have 10% ethanol??
    Is there any reason to suspect that 10% ethanol-ISN'T actually 10% but maybe just 3-4%-whatever is needed for "knock" suppression

    My FE has improved lately-last several months-I have had a couple of 17.1 mpg 10.3 mile trips-on a trip I very frequently make
    Previously 16.4 mpg was the best I could do
    This is in a big vehicle- 1998 1/2 ton 2wd suburban-5.7
    Motor on all the time-just pulse and glide-and I put it in N at the top of the long bridge(mississippi river Huey Long bridge) it glides in D up to 40 mph -no engine braking
    -above 38-40 it engine brakes-so it goes in N roughly 45 mph-then picks up speed to maybe 67mph

    Anyway my mpg is a bit better lately-
    Any chance 10% is actually not 10%??-
  15. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    No, ethanol isn't required, but the refineries have become dependent on it. They got used to refining 84 octane, and dumping 10% ethanol in it to make 87. Yes, they can technically only dump 1% ethanol in it, just to say its there, but then they would have to work at refining the fuel better. Its probably just cheaper for them to keep producing 84 octane and dumping ethanol in.
    litesong likes this.
  16. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    Since E0 became available to me a couple of months ago I've had the opportunity to *just* squeak out enough data to get a feel for the difference in this car. My last commuting tank at the exact same same tank average speed and within 6F average temperature of a prior tank on E10, E0 gave me 7% better FE. The other E0 tanks don't have a direct analog yet but they're trending higher on my plots. I'll stick with it for as long as the stuff is available. (For science, of course.)
    litesong likes this.
  17. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    It's been at least three years since I've used any E0. I do recall about 7% more MPG than with E10.
    litesong likes this.
  18. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    08escape-so you figure they DON'T bother to reformulate-??we aren't a corn state-ethanol has to be shipped in-of course refinery right on the rail road right of way-so no big deal to send tankers of ethanol from the midwest.

    Makes no sense that you guys get 7%-when you should get just 3%

    Back when gasoline was $3 plus-my suspicion-paranoid sneaky stuff always crosses my mind(hey look at VW-even I wouldn't buy that)
    is 10% ethanol-actually was more than 10%-maybe it was 15% or 20%-

    Now of course gasoline $1.45 wholesale is cheaper than $1.60 ethanol
    so unless they -the "cheating" refineries-are too lazy to UN-CHEAT
    or perhaps they don't want to attract attention??

    Anyway- the 7% better
    Doesn't make sense for 10% ethanol
    It DOES make sense for 20% ethanol
    and CORPS do CHEAT when $$ is involved
    Might explain why some cars-and small engines(boats lawn mowers and other miserable lawn care engines)-have SOOOO many problems with "10%" ethanol
    IT ISN'T 10%

    so maybe they-refineries- have been doing a VW??

    Yeah 20% explains the 7% better than
    "my very modern engine somehow can't handle 10% ethanol as efficiently"

    or another suggestion-you guy can't divide(ok joke)
    or you guys are biased so you "drive differently" on 10% or 0%

    So my suggestions
    1) Refineries cheating 10% is actually 20%-perfectly explains the 7%
    2) my modern engine can't use the energy in 10% as efficiently-???
    3) I-you- can't divide?? you being 1000's of competent adults who measure their mpg
    4) You guys are biased-you nurse the 0% tanks better-and "beat up" on 10% tanks

    My paranoid suggestion
    to my paranoid eye
    makes the most sense
  19. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    Gas can be tested for E content at home with a $2 glass rain gauge (or other measuring devices) very easily. I tested some about 1 1/2 years ago and it was right on 10%. A quick google search will show you how, if interested.
  20. 08EscapeHybrid

    08EscapeHybrid Moderator

    Personally, I hypermile harder with E10 in my tank. I really don't want my vehicle average to go down any more than it has to.

    What I'm saying about the refineries being lazy is that maybe setting up the refinery to produce 87 octane straight may be more expensive (to reset and to operate) than to just continue producing 84 and dumping ethanol in.
    litesong likes this.

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