One Group’s Strategy to Derail Oil Pipelines, Raise Energy Prices

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by herm, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    The only thing that can make anyone energy independent -- is renewable energy.

    Oil is finite.

    Coal is finite.

    Gas is finite.

    Uranium is finite.

    Renewable energy will last as long as the earth and the sun -- about anther 5 Billion years or so.
  2. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Oil and coal was made from CO2, water and sunlight.. and it is renewable if you open up your time scale a bit. We can make oil from plants today, duplicating the process.. and we have been making charcoal for a long time... obviously it wont be as cheap a free fuel spewing out of the ground like magic, we might have to be more careful spending it.
  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Isn't this Keystone thing yesterday's news?

    Thought I read there's already a work-around well underway utilizing existing permits to expand a (longer) pathway through Illinois and then down to Houston/Port Arthur through Cushing.


    "Most of the changes are expected to be finished in 2014. Once completed, they would push an additional 310,000 barrels a day through Michigan toward Ontario and take 850,000 barrels a day to the Gulf Coast."

    Keystone XL rival Enbridge avoids scrutiny of oil pipeline plans


    / if that doesn't work, Warren Buffet's got some trains they could use, and if that doesn't work they'll just pipe it all to the west coast. This stuff's going to market one way or another, but it won't affect U.S. gasoline prices much any way it goes. Oil is a world market, and the bottleneck that caused the WTI/Brent split on oil price is mostly "resolved" now.
    // Conversely, US natural gas price has a long way to go to get "un-bottlenecked". I would expect natural gas to stay relatively low for many years to come.... so I'm eye-balling CNG conversions for my ride.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    .... OR, we could make something that has an EROEI high enough to actually be somewhat affordable ...... like biogas.
  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Score: 75%
    (gas is renewable):D
  6. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    methanol, methanol :)
  7. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Carcus- ha,ha you got Neil- but only by splitting hairs.
    Ok-yes technically true.
    But what part of methane is from renewable sources now?
    Maybe 1/1000 1/10,000 heck maybe 1/100,000
    A few landfills are being mined for methane-guessing the methane they mine was from paper products-trees-certainly renewable-

    And Herm is right also- methanol ethanol are renewable

    Carcus- kinda puzzled about the below
    "Most of the changes are expected to be finished in 2014. Once completed, they would push an additional 310,000 barrels a day through Michigan toward Ontario and take 850,000 barrels a day to the Gulf Coast."

    Why ship it to Ontario? Across the top of Mich?? Not sure just what that means?

    Another question- why wouldn't conservative land owners sell an easement(sic) to allow that pipeline-Keystone-across their land?
    They probably would make more $$ with the pipeline than with whatever farming/cattle whatever they currently do?
    Is it a " stay off my land it is mine and I don't need the $$" issue to them? Short term wealth just not much interest to these midwesterners?
    Just curious what their reasoning is- and likely the GOV would be to just screw them-eminent domain or whatever it is that allows GOV to take your land for levees bridges?
    and to take it for BIG MONEY to make Bigger Money- if they can convince the GOV that it is in the Public interest

    Sorry about spelling-spell check is down

    Herm- 13% Vulture elevator (abbreviated version)
  8. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    My guess is that a pipeline to the west coast will eventually be built, after the Indian tribes have their say.. and then the tar will end up in China.
  9. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member


    Maybe you-or someone else-posted something indicating there already is a 350,000 BPD pipeline going west-and they plan to add another pipeline to increase to 1 million per day?

    But those Mountains?? Just high high are those passes-the lowest passes?
    Just HOW EXPENSIVE is it to pump that oil to 8000 feet or so?? Gaining at least 6000 feet??
    Gotta be expensive??? Energy expensive??
    I wonder how much energy it takes-?
    How many foot lbs of energy is in 1 lb of crude? Takes at least 6000 to hoist it 6000 ft?
    What is the energy content-in ft lbs-of a pound of oil?
    Gotta pump LOTS of CO2 into the atm to hoist that oil that high(guessing the mts have pretty high passes)
  10. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Yes, but can't you recover that energy on the way down? Or at least save having to spend as much energy pumping it down as it takes to pump the tar the same distance at constant altitude?

    Can the stuff be pumped at all if it happens to get cold at high altitude in the winter in the Canadian Rockies?
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  11. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    You get a little energy back-as you say 6000 ft head-should carry you to the coast- but it will certainly cost more energy than a flat land pipeline

    They will have to heat that oil-won't get that energy back
    and REALLY INSULATE that pipeline- just like Alaska.
    I think they periodically run some big self propelled gadget thru it to clean it out-they must tether it so they can pull it out if necessary-maybe long super strong electric cord

    Say what is the earthquake risk out there?
  12. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    depends how insulted the Native American Gods are by the desecration of a pipeline running over the burial grounds where Tony "Iron Eyes" Cody* is resting


    * Cody was born as Espera Oscar de Corti in Kaplan, Louisiana, a second son of Antonio de Corti and his wife, Francesca Salpietra, immigrants from Sicily.
  13. 50 mpg by 2012

    50 mpg by 2012 Well-Known Member

    According to a discussion heard recently ... it is concern about pipeline failures and the industry's success rate (or lack of) at "clean-up".

    One relatively new pipeline was said to have failed 15~20 times in about 24 months of operation.

    Plus these tar "oils" are difficult to recover from the environment once they "escape".
  14. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Just fine the company for each leak, watch how quickly the pipeline becomes leakproof.
  15. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    Unless the regulators and inspectors who would apply the fines are "involved" in the industry.
  16. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member


    Love that Iron Eyes Cody thing.
    Genuine Italian Sicilian American "Indian" from Louisiana!
  17. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    I hope they are involved in the industry, otherwise they would not know anything about it.. no community organizers or social workers doing this job please :flag:
  18. 50 mpg by 2012

    50 mpg by 2012 Well-Known Member

    How much of a fine?

    Maybe double (or triple?) the cost of a pristine cleanup?

    How about the BP Gulf spill? Has it been totally cleaned up yet? No. What is the cleanup cost so far?

    Just asking ...
  19. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    You know that oil is biodegradable, after a while nature will take care of it. The Gulf seems to have come thru fine.
  20. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    BP- for some reason- is getting ready to sell Gulf of Mexico leases to the Chinese.
    Perhaps "reparations" have been so harsh that they have to.
    Or maybe they haven't actually kicked in the $$ yet-and are planning to not have assets that can be seized.
    Or maybe they need the cash?

    In any case-I would probably prefer the Brits to the Chinese.
    It is suggested the Aussies are bidding also.Yeah I would prefer them.
    USA based companies aren't going to end up with the leases-many have spent lots of cash on deep water leases which aren't paying off yet-so they don't have thr $$ to bid..

    In any case gotta be careful about how harshly they are punished-you can end up with the Chinese (probably less of a concern in inland Canada than 50-100 miles off the coast of USA)

    Some of our fishermen complained that they ween't adequately compensated because "they didn't actually show what they really made on their taxes" cash business in a lot of cases.

    Yeah-gotta be careful with fines reparations if it is a "good company" or a better than wha you might end up with company.
    BP was probably about average in cost cutting cheaping out-they certainly screwed up-well tests showed them they shouldn't unload the drilling mud in that well- but they ignored that-they also cheaped out on how it was done in other ways-
    But now we get the Chinese-so......

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