A few quick notes on the Prius-II from a non-Prius-II owner …

[brick]

I would assume that the initial 20-30s of S1 that we get has to do with getting the catalytic convertor up to temp before allowing the engine to do any real work. (The Prius is clean first, FE second, afterall.) Then again my assumptions have a history of being wrong...

[hobbit]

Wow, that's some impressive alphabet soup, wrapped around even
more impressive MFD shots. To answer one of the questions in
there, yes, as you transition from WS to regular ICE-off glide
you not only get a little RPM bump, you get a few squirts of
gas. No clue why. It's not a hack to lower fuel rail pressure,
since the fuel pump runs at the same time while it's doing
that -- in fact it's probably the opposite, to make sure fuel
pressure is *high* and right there ready to go at the next
light-off. It's only about five cycles of my #1-injector
monitor light, though, so it's not a lot of gas gone. Once in
a very great while I'll see that transition without the squirt.
.
Okay, so what *do* you mean by DSG? I hope you're not turning
the whole car off while sailing down the road. Hopefully you're
talking about "warp neutral" where you get into N at less than
42 mph, even if you wind up going faster than that later.
I use that all the time, it helps.
.
How are you monitoring your WS, especially at low SoCs?
.
_H*

[xcel]

Hi Dan and Al:

___From dead cold, bring her up to whatever speed you deem necessary, drop her into N and push the power button. As soon as you see the speedo drop out (darn near immediately), you push the start button again to bring everything back online other then the ability to shift into D and your speedo is missing. The only time the parking pawls come into play is when you push the Start button to reboot her the second time. You had better be going **** slow (meaning 0 mph/stopped) or there will be pieces of HSD all over the pavement when you are through. This is not Warp-Neutral and you are not coasting down the road electronically dead, just that you have no ability to coax her into D other then twice when she allowed everything to work just as if I was coming out of a glide? I have no idea as to the exact sequence or why she allowed a shift right back into D with the ICE kicking on immediately afterwards twice so far from a DSG but I have my eyes peeled for it if it happens again? This DSG mode is the one I would like a lot more information about given the ability to almost completely remove the warm-up hit albeit with some very advanced and not recommended for all but the most unmolested of roadways technique. It is not perfect by any means but I touched 80 mpg after 2 miles and 4 bars of SoC again tonight which is a heck of a lot better then 40 mpg while 2 miles out with the same SoC?

___Dan, this Prius does not have an EV button or a block heater and the warm-up hit is almost as merciless as it was with the Prius-I

___Anyway, the N immediately after hitting the Start push button acts like an EV switch without the EV switch. Except you only get to use it once DSG is an extreme P&G method to hold her FE up while she heats up but I am not entirely sure about the ramifications just yet? Everything is spinning given there is no disconnect. You are booted up but I do not know the details as to what is going on with HSD’s lubrication requirements and MGSet engagement algorithms?

___About grill blocks. It is not about keeping coolant temps up in 60 degree ambient temps, it is about RRC’s. Glides appear to be shortened below 70 degrees F. I know the Ranger in particular sees this same issue when she is driven in the high 50’s or below. The Accord and Corolla see it in the high 40’s. It gets worse as temps fall in all vehicles.

___I ran into something else yesterday afternoon. I drove through the mall ring road on my way to work and I was just shy of 163 degrees F per the SG-II from dead cold. 157 ticked up to 159. I was fully expecting to have to wait out a 163 degree S4 while in that fast idle mode but low and behold, the 5 second idle appeared and she dropped out. I EV’ed away from that light and all appeared as if S4 was reached at 159 instead of 163? She cooled off a touch to 157 by the time I pulled away from the light if that helps? I have not tested the S4 temp limits below what appeared yesterday afternoon but I would be very interested if anyone sees S4 below 159?

___Marc, I believe Dan Kroushl told me that restarting from the button no matter the coolant temp will force cold-restart like behavior. I am not sure exactly but it takes about 20 – 30 seconds even after coolant temp is up before she comes into her own with this one?

___Al, WS can be seen and felt by the SG-II’s tach (980 RPM), the mimic and the regen slowdown and then letting loose when WS appears. I am not running WS’s at low SoC’s as that is a highway technique and she is running at 6 bars most of the time with 5 on rare occasions.

___Good Luck and thanks for the answers so far.

___Wayne

[Skwyre7]

Originally Posted by xcel

___I ran into something else yesterday afternoon. I drove through the mall ring road on my way to work and I was just shy of 163 degrees F per the SG-II from dead cold. 157 ticked up to 159. I was fully expecting to have to wait out a 163 degree S4 while in that fast idle mode but low and behold, the 5 second idle appeared and she dropped out. I EV’ed away from that light and all appeared as if S4 was reached at 159 instead of 163? She cooled off a touch to 157 by the time I pulled away from the light if that helps? I have not tested the S4 temp limits below what appeared yesterday afternoon but I would be very interested if anyone sees S4 below 159?

I seem to remember 155ºF was the magic number for me. The problem is that you have to get it up to about 163ºF for the temp not to drop below 155ºF during all of your glides. Once you get up to the 161-163 range, your pulses should be enough to keep the temps up. Below that, and you have to watch it very closely, or you'll drop back into S3. This was a major issue for me last winter (with no EBH installed).

[Right Lane Cruiser]

This is fascinating stuff, Wayne! When you do the DSG is the engine running at all? If it is, how is this different than just gliding in neutral? If not, are you just ramping the trip mpg really high so that when the engine DOES have to go through its warm up you already have an enormous number to average against?

The lack of more on the highway is still pretty irksome to me -- and I know it must be driving you absolutely nuts!

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Skwyre7

I seem to remember 155ºF was the magic number for me. The problem is that you have to get it up to about 163ºF for the temp not to drop below 155ºF during all of your glides. Once you get up to the 161-163 range, your pulses should be enough to keep the temps up. Below that, and you have to watch it very closely, or you'll drop back into S3. This was a major issue for me last winter (with no EBH installed).

Yep, the coolant temp is reported in Celcius then translated to Ferenheit by SGII. The original 5-state publication listed the magic temp as 73c (163.4F) but have found that in the 2007, everything is definitely switched over at 70c (158.0F). I've found all the important cutoffs to be round numbers metric wise.

Temps to watch for are:
40c - S2 transition
70c - S4 transition
80c - Coolant pump comes on for 60 sec. (glides fail without EV).
90c - Engine block fan comes on to cool block (draws amps) <unconfirmed, got no current meter>

Speed cut offs are:
55 kph - Minimum speed you can enter an S3 glide in.
65 kph - Highest speed you can enter a 0 RPM glide.

I know I'm kinda OCD about this metric stuff, but it really makes Prius Piloting a lot easier. Plus I always think I'm going a lot faster than I am. I still go 80-90 on the highway like everyone else, only difference is they are in MPH, I'm in KPH .

11011011

[locutus]

Originally Posted by Dan

The original 5-state publication listed the magic temp as 73c (163.4F) but have found that in the 2007, everything is definitely switched over at 70c (158.0F).

Ditto on my 2005. I'm in degF and the SG skips from 155 to 157 to 159 to 161. At 157 I can stop and force S4, and I will actually be in S4 when I take off again (unless the stop is long and my temp drops to 152 or 154 ).

Originally Posted by Dan

40c - S2 transition

Marc mentioned it already, but the S2 transition can be messed with by an EBH (where you'll start at 110+, but you still have S1 for 20-30 seconds - I think no matter what there's a minimum time for S1). Also when it's REALLY cold and I'm starting with a coolant temp of like 30F, I think I've gone to S2 before hitting 104F.

Originally Posted by Dan

65 kph - Highest speed you can enter a 0 RPM glide.

I think you can hit 66kph (=41.01 MPH) before WS kicks in, I've definitely been in "low 41s" with ICE still off. You have to really creep up to it and work your glides into the bottom of a hill though.

[hobbit]

Oh, another thing I was gonna mention... Wayne, I think you're
somewhat right about RPM ranges. High torque RPM range does
drift down a bit at lower speeds, so I see reasonably low
vacuum at, say, 1200 on a takeoff, but that doesn't seem to
hold true when you get up past 35 mph or so. You can probably
see the same effect by comparing RPM and LOD at various road
speeds. Most of my "critical RPM limit" ranting applies to
highway speeds, but since the range is reasonably generous I
tend to just tell people "get north of 1500" which is easy to
remember rather than some weird sliding scale. At the speeds
you're working at, you've probably got plenty of torque going
on just off idle but it's like being in 5th gear.
.
Another parameter that would confirm this is MG1 torque, which
seems to always ride between -20 - -25 Nm under proper load -- as
you'd expect since it's always taking up the rest of what
doesn't go straight to the ring. That's regardless of which
way it's actually turning, of course. Fall below -19 Nm or so
and now you're down into loafing territory. But I don't think
the SG can watch that yet, unless someone's worked out the
CAN string to send. I can watch it on autoenginuity, but that
doesn't tell me anything about the underlying bits.
.
_H*

[tarabell]

From reading this thread, I'm clearly not smart enough to drive this car

[Right Lane Cruiser]

Oh, not so, Tara!! Anyone who could go through the possibilities in the HCHII as methodically as you have done should be able to get the hang of the Prius no problem!