A few quick notes on the Prius-II from a non-Prius-II owner …

[HCHCIN]

I have to agree with Tarabell -- the HCHII is dead simple compared to this Prius stuff:

1) Watch the iFCD.
2) Invoke EV-Glide as much as appropriate.
3) Minimize assist.

Seriously, it's the Hypermiling for Dummies machine. --RN

[FireEngineer]

Hey Wayne,

Now that I'm back from the block heater install road trip and catching up with things, do you want a block heater installed on Cheryl's Prius to play with. I've only got a couple of dozen sitting at home.

Wayne

[xcel]

Hi Wayne:

___You bet! I will be on nights all week and Cheryl gets her car back in just a few days. It would be a great gift for her along with the 0W-20 oil change she already received Can I drive it over Saturday morning maybe?

___Prius’ need an EBH in the worst way. To my parents in 63 degree temps over 15 miles and dead cold yielded 90. I left there trying to come up with a way to not use the DSG technique as it is way too advanced for 99.97% of the population and would get people in trouble in one heck of a hurry. About 02:00 AM with 51 - 53 degree temps and again from almost dead cold, she allowed a paltry mid 78.x into the drive. The first (2) 5-minute bars were below 50 in fact and boy did she cool off fast in glides meaning 2 failed ones during the segment at that I thought the Thermos would bring her back to an easy 105 – 110 after just 3 hours but not even a chance. Low 90 degree temps and I was already 3 or 4 blocks out with the ICE-On! Toyota should consider raising the thermostat temps for warmed up steady state and lower this warm-up hit with a larger thermos or better insulation in the next iteration or there will be a lot of hypermilers ticked off?

___Recommendation for any and all Prius drivers, block everything even in moderately cool temps (no blocks on this Prius unfortunately ) and keep that EBH plugged in whenever you stop for a lengthy period. You just cannot make up for the warm-up hit over a short drive without one!!!

___Something else I have been working with although most Prius drivers know it to be old hat. I used to think and even did run the Prius at 3 to 4 bars during a P&G regiment. At the lower end of 3, your Pulses get hit with MG1 sucking pull to put the pack back near its normal seeking 56% SoC. Pulses down in the 12 – 20 mpg range with no additional accel are commonplace so when you see 3, get on it and bring her back or you will be sorry. I have pulled off the highway and see the same pulse FE (23 – 28 mpg) with a high 3 up to 6 bars. Use no EV at night and you can easily hold 5 – 6 bars forever. This will allow 90 + in just about any mph band up to ~ 38 mph in temps from 55 + to whatever with the lights on.

___Also, the Prius can be a hate magnet and a savior at various times. I was pulling away from a light under EV that just turned green with a red not ½ a block ahead and got hit with the finger and honk non-sense from a female Beemer driver. She pulled around and sat at that red in front of me for about 2 minutes before it turned green just like I did and we continued. She gave me another finger as we both made the turn onto the main arterial. WTF as there was no where to go and this was at ~ 12:15 PM in the afternoon! I have been through those same lights in everything else and never did I experience that kind of reaction?

___The other was a much more positive experience as I was traveling through Vernon Hills/Libertyville on a State Route (Rt. 21) ~ 01:30 AM in the morning on Wednesday. I was P&G’ing between 22 and 38 in 25 – 45 mph zones with a ton of mostly green lights on the priority roadway. While doing so, I picked up the attention of a Vernon Hills police officer. He paced me, pulled back, pulled up, pulled back and was generally just looking me over from the other lane. When he pulled along side the last time, I looked back at him for a good 5 seconds while leaning forward to the wheel and I guess he must have thought there goes another one of those crazy hybrid drivers or something? Did I raise my bottom end of the band or stop the P&G regiment? Of course not Having Wisconsin plates this deep into IL. probably made him think I was lost at the same time?

___As most of you know, the Prius-II is somewhat of a pig out on the highway and I cannot figure out why? The 7-bars of SoC with only the barest amount of assist can yield great 70 – 90 + numbers for as long as you can hold onto that rare event but the std. 6 bars and cruising between 45 and 60 yield ~ the same 55 – 75 mpg range depending on whatever she wants to allow? I cannot isolate it to the terrain or traffic conditions and I even pulled into a super tight close-in to see if she would pop up. She barely even blipped up let alone that I was expecting to see over 100 almost instantly! The 02 Prius-I when dropped down into the mid to high 40’s would pop up into the 75 + range on the Interstate. This Prius-II simply will not allow it for some reason? I have never been in a well setup vehicle that did not spike to 50 – 75% > then EPA highway at those speeds yet this Prius-II will only allow 10 – 30% over no matter what I am doing at a somewhat steady state load? It is frustrating as hell that I need to throw a few long WS’s to std. Glide and then back up again through some interesting gyrations along on/off ramps and such whereas everything else I have driven just picks it up and holds.

___About WS’s. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE? Holding a no arrow glide-WS is a tricky proposition and the resultant FE increase may or may not be justified for the work involved? Any amount of regen is bad under a HS WS so it might be best to just use the std. WS down to your target and be done with that.

___About N-Glide to EV to Pulse transitions. I use a lot of N-Glides so I can check the SG-II’s parameters back and forth rather then scanning the MFD while holding a throttle position. When you bring her back online with a shift to D, if you are off the accelerator pedal, you go into a very quick regen to glide to EV and then into your pulse as you re-apply the accelerator pedal. What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears. You can go straight into Glide without that Regen hit and then begin either EV or immediate pulse from there on up. Again, a very minor amount of energy gain but anything is something while trying to pull her numbers in a P&G segment vs. that disastrous (per my own standards and expectations ) high 60’s/low 70’s highway she may only be capable of?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

[diamondlarry]

Originally Posted by xcel

Hi Wayne:

___You bet! I will be on nights all week and Cheryl gets her car back in just a few days. It would be a great gift for her along with the 0W-20 oil change she already received Can I drive it over Saturday morning maybe?

___Prius’ need an EBH in the worst way. To my parents in 63 degree temps over 15 miles and dead cold yielded 90. I left there trying to come up with a way to not use the DSG technique as it is way too advanced for 99.97% of the population and would get people in trouble in one heck of a hurry. About 02:00 AM with 51 - 53 degree temps and again from almost dead cold, she allowed a paltry mid 78.x into the drive. The first (2) 5-minute bars were below 50 in fact and boy did she cool off fast in glides meaning 2 failed ones during the segment at that I thought the Thermos would bring her back to an easy 105 – 110 after just 3 hours but not even a chance. Low 90 degree temps and I was already 3 or 4 blocks out with the ICE-On! Toyota should consider raising the thermostat temps for warmed up steady state and lower this warm-up hit with a larger thermos or better insulation in the next iteration or there will be a lot of hypermilers ticked off?

___Recommendation for any and all Prius drivers, block everything even in moderately cool temps (no blocks on this Prius unfortunately ) and keep that EBH plugged in whenever you stop for a lengthy period. You just cannot make up for the warm-up hit over a short drive without one!!!
___Something else I have been working with although most Prius drivers know it to be old hat. I used to think and even did run the Prius at 3 to 4 bars during a P&G regiment. At the lower end of 3, your Pulses get hit with MG1 sucking pull to put the pack back near its normal seeking 56% SoC. Pulses down in the 12 – 20 mpg range with no additional accel are commonplace so when you see 3, get on it and bring her back or you will be sorry. I have pulled off the highway and see the same pulse FE (23 – 28 mpg) with a high 3 up to 6 bars. Use no EV at night and you can easily hold 5 – 6 bars forever. This will allow 90 + in just about any mph band up to ~ 38 mph in temps from 55 + to whatever with the lights on.

___Also, the Prius can be a hate magnet and a savior at various times. I was pulling away from a light under EV that just turned green with a red not ½ a block ahead and got hit with the finger and honk non-sense from a female Beemer driver. She pulled around and sat at that red in front of me for about 2 minutes before it turned green just like I did and we continued. She gave me another finger as we both made the turn onto the main arterial. WTF as there was no where to go and this was at ~ 12:15 PM in the afternoon! I have been through those same lights in everything else and never did I experience that kind of reaction?

___The other was a much more positive experience as I was traveling through Vernon Hills/Libertyville on a State Route (Rt. 21) ~ 01:30 AM in the morning on Wednesday. I was P&G’ing between 22 and 38 in 25 – 45 mph zones with a ton of mostly green lights on the priority roadway. While doing so, I picked up the attention of a Vernon Hills police officer. He paced me, pulled back, pulled up, pulled back and was generally just looking me over from the other lane. When he pulled along side the last time, I looked back at him for a good 5 seconds while leaning forward to the wheel and I guess he must have thought there goes another one of those crazy hybrid drivers or something? Did I raise my bottom end of the band or stop the P&G regiment? Of course not Having Wisconsin plates this deep into IL. probably made him think I was lost at the same time?

___As most of you know, the Prius-II is somewhat of a pig out on the highway and I cannot figure out why? The 7-bars of SoC with only the barest amount of assist can yield great 70 – 90 + numbers for as long as you can hold onto that rare event but the std. 6 bars and cruising between 45 and 60 yield ~ the same 55 – 75 mpg range depending on whatever she wants to allow? I cannot isolate it to the terrain or traffic conditions and I even pulled into a super tight close-in to see if she would pop up. She barely even blipped up let alone that I was expecting to see over 100 almost instantly! The 02 Prius-I when dropped down into the mid to high 40’s would pop up into the 75 + range on the Interstate. This Prius-II simply will not allow it for some reason? I have never been in a well setup vehicle that did not spike to 50 – 75% > then EPA highway at those speeds yet this Prius-II will only allow 10 – 30% over no matter what I am doing at a somewhat steady state load? It is frustrating as hell that I need to throw a few long WS’s to std. Glide and then back up again through some interesting gyrations along on/off ramps and such whereas everything else I have driven just picks it up and holds.

___About WS’s. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE? Holding a no arrow glide-WS is a tricky proposition and the resultant FE increase may or may not be justified for the work involved? Any amount of regen is bad under a HS WS so it might be best to just use the std. WS down to your target and be done with that.

___About N-Glide to EV to Pulse transitions. I use a lot of N-Glides so I can check the SG-II’s parameters back and forth rather then scanning the MFD while holding a throttle position. When you bring her back online with a shift to D, if you are off the accelerator pedal, you go into a very quick regen to glide to EV and then into your pulse as you re-apply the accelerator pedal. What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears. You can go straight into Glide without that Regen hit and then begin either EV or immediate pulse from there on up. Again, a very minor amount of energy gain but anything is something while trying to pull her numbers in a P&G segment vs. that disastrous (per my own standards and expectations ) high 60’s/low 70’s highway she may only be capable of?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

You could have a good grill block in about 5-10 minutes. Go to Lowe's or Menard's or someplace similar and buy a package of 1/2" pipe insulation. It may work a little easier for stuffing in the slots if you cut the pipe insulation in half. I'm running with all but the bottom two slots blocked and rarely see temps much over 190F even in that large parking lot known as Chicago.

There is a thread over on Priuschat about Prius-hate. Some of the oldtimers seem to think that there isn't anything to the Prius being a hate magnet but I'm not so sure. There are too many cases similar to what you're describing to discount the idea. I think it could get worse if what I heard on the radio yesterday comes true. Somebody was saying that if the U.S. were to pull out too early that Iran would jump on the opportunity and we could see gas go to >$9/gallon. That would hurt even in a Prius.

[tarabell]

Originally Posted by diamondlarry

I think it could get worse if what I heard on the radio yesterday comes true. Somebody was saying that if the U.S. were to pull out too early that Iran would jump on the opportunity and we could see gas go to >$9/gallon. That would hurt even in a Prius.

It was John Porter.

WASHINGTON -- Gasoline prices could rise to about $9 per gallon if the United States withdraws troops from Iraq prematurely, Rep. Jon Porter said he was told on a trip to Iraq that ended this week.

The Nevada Republican, who returned Tuesday from his fourth trip to Iraq, met with U.S. Army Gen. David Petraeus, U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, Iraqi Deputy President Tariq al-Hashimi and Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh.

"To a person, they said there would be genocide, gas prices in the U.S. would rise to eight or nine dollars a gallon, al-Qaida would continue its expansion, and Iran would take over that portion of the world if we leave," Porter said Wednesday in a phone interview from Las Vegas.

Porter did not elaborate on the assessment that gasoline prices could spike. His spokesman, Matt Leffingwell, said afterward that the scenario "makes sense if Iran moves into Iraq."

Porter "can't speculate directly on what is going to happen with gas prices, but the market prices for oil reflect the stability in that region," Leffingwell said.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/9466252.html

[diamondlarry]

Thanks tarabell!

[Dan]

Quick note before you top her off. Beware of the bladder. After all this work to say gas, she can spit a quarter gallon back at you when you top off, without batting an eye. I've only got 22 tanks on mine and she's burped back gas down the quarter panel twice already.

I'm very gentle now at those filling stations.

11011011

[JimboK]

Hi, Wayne. I've been pretty busy the last couple of days, house-hunting among other things. What else, if anything, do you need me to look at in Can-View? FYI, m'lady and I are traveling this weekend, so I'll have ample opportunity to peek at whatever highway readings you need.

Originally Posted by xcel

About WS’s. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE?

I recently did a test on a highway with modest hills comparing manual RPM control + WS to cruise control. I need to get the final results written up and posted, but the bottom line: CC did just as well as the other. Each technique netted about 60 MPG at an average of 60 MPH. (That was before the Hydroedges, BTW.) For steeper hills, WS probably still helps, but I'm convinced that on the flat or only gentle highway inclines, I might as well use CC. It's certainly a lot less work.

Originally Posted by xcel

What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears.

I've recently been trying the same thing, though I apply as much pedal (as reported by CV) as I know I need to reach my target RPM. When gliding down to 16 MPH, for example, 34% pedal takes me right to 1600 RPM when I shift back into D. In addition to avoiding that short burst of EV during the transition, I have near-instant attainment of the target RPM.

[Dan]

Wayne,

OK.. I posted a question on Grille Blocking as well as one on glide entry. The glide entry is a bit of the inverse of the pulse entry that you commented on. Going from DICE-on to NICE-off without assist or regen.

11011011

[locutus]

Originally Posted by xcel

___Also, the Prius can be a hate magnet and a savior at various times. I was pulling away from a light under EV that just turned green with a red not ½ a block ahead and got hit with the finger and honk non-sense from a female Beemer driver. She pulled around and sat at that red in front of me for about 2 minutes before it turned green just like I did and we continued. She gave me another finger as we both made the turn onto the main arterial. WTF as there was no where to go and this was at ~ 12:15 PM in the afternoon! I have been through those same lights in everything else and never did I experience that kind of reaction?

Less common here where I'll easily see 5-10 priuses on a trip through town, but I know what you mean. Even if you're not doing anything extreme. Gotta make it to that red light, and no Priuses will get in my way!

Originally Posted by xcel

___As most of you know, the Prius-II is somewhat of a pig out on the highway and I cannot figure out why? The 7-bars of SoC with only the barest amount of assist can yield great 70 – 90 + numbers for as long as you can hold onto that rare event but the std. 6 bars and cruising between 45 and 60 yield ~ the same 55 – 75 mpg range depending on whatever she wants to allow? I cannot isolate it to the terrain or traffic conditions and I even pulled into a super tight close-in to see if she would pop up. She barely even blipped up let alone that I was expecting to see over 100 almost instantly! The 02 Prius-I when dropped down into the mid to high 40’s would pop up into the 75 + range on the Interstate. This Prius-II simply will not allow it for some reason? I have never been in a well setup vehicle that did not spike to 50 – 75% > then EPA highway at those speeds yet this Prius-II will only allow 10 – 30% over no matter what I am doing at a somewhat steady state load? It is frustrating as hell that I need to throw a few long WS’s to std. Glide and then back up again through some interesting gyrations along on/off ramps and such whereas everything else I have driven just picks it up and holds.

___About WS’s. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE? Holding a no arrow glide-WS is a tricky proposition and the resultant FE increase may or may not be justified for the work involved? Any amount of regen is bad under a HS WS so it might be best to just use the std. WS down to your target and be done with that.

NOW you know why I complain about "not knowing what to do on the highway" all the time!

Originally Posted by xcel

___About N-Glide to EV to Pulse transitions. I use a lot of N-Glides so I can check the SG-II’s parameters back and forth rather then scanning the MFD while holding a throttle position. When you bring her back online with a shift to D, if you are off the accelerator pedal, you go into a very quick regen to glide to EV and then into your pulse as you re-apply the accelerator pedal. What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears. You can go straight into Glide without that Regen hit and then begin either EV or immediate pulse from there on up. Again, a very minor amount of energy gain but anything is something while trying to pull her numbers in a P&G segment vs. that disastrous (per my own standards and expectations ) high 60’s/low 70’s highway she may only be capable of?

I've been experimenting with N-Glide a lot lately as well. The "pedal match" is something I've discovered as well, depress to D-Glide position and pop her back into D with no flick of regen or assist. I've used N-Glides to benefit in two specific cases - going down a hill where I know I'll bottom out at >34MPH and I'm still in S2 or S3 - throw into N, get the 3-beeps of EV-forced-cancel, but ICE stays off. Once speed bleeds off below 34 again, either drop to D and restart for a pulse, or engage EV again, pedal match, and switch to D to continue the glide. Similarly if I'm in any stage going down a hill where I know I'll bottom out at >41MPH. No need for the extra drag of ICE-spin (WS) if I don't have to.

Originally Posted by Dan

Quick note before you top her off. Beware of the bladder. After all this work to say gas, she can spit a quarter gallon back at you when you top off, without batting an eye. I've only got 22 tanks on mine and she's burped back gas down the quarter panel twice already.

I'm very gentle now at those filling stations.

11011011

There's an easy solution... don't top off I'll probably never post a KiloTank because I don't top off, but I've never had any spills this way.