Heretical newbie?

[ckuttner]

Forgive any heresy here, but this eco-minded Oregonian commutes 25 miles of stop-&-go daily out to the country, with no public transportation alternatives.

I currently use a 1988 740 Volvo Turbo Station Wagon which gets just a shade over 20 mpg of the most expensive regular gas in the continental US, Oregon running highest in the nation.

We once were able to rent a Prius and LOVED it, but as I look at the economics, a hybrid doesn't make sense economically other than the eco-message it gives out.

Alternatives we are considering are:

1) Keeping the old dear running. Gas costs plus maintenance are cheaper than car payments or the equivalent paying back of my savings account.

2) Getting a nice Honda Fit, 40 MPG, about $16K. Costs more than #1, but cheaper than #3.

3) Springing for a Prius or Civic Hybrid, but unless gas goes to more than double, not really economically a good deal.

Am I missing some factor, other than maybe emissions? Crash safety is important, with my being surrounded by total idiots in their Big Truck SUVs.

chas

[Chuck]

Keep in mind that our goal is to be a resource to improve the fuel economy of any vehicle, not just a Prius for example.

[tarabell]

Welcome, we have a couple Volvo drivers here --and Fit drivers also who might be of help.

[tbaleno]

If you have a running car and your major concern is cost, then you are probably better off keeping your car. If you start to pay more in gas and maintenance to keep that car running, then you should consider buying a more efficient vehicle.

On this site there is a lot of inforamation on how to get better milage in what you have now, so read up and post any questions you might have.

[aca2983]

I'm with you. Economically speaking, buying a hybrid often doesn't make sense.

A 740 could probably go another 10 years, and even though she has the aerodynamics of a brick wall, I'm sure you could squeeze extra MPG out of it by learning some things here, and you can enjoy 10 more years without car payments.

I try to be a fairly green person, but sometimes the greenest approach is to keep what you have and use it till it falls apart. If the Volvo is realiable, keep it as long as you can, or up until the point where you encounter a major expense.

Originally Posted by ckuttner

Forgive any heresy here, but this eco-minded Oregonian commutes 25 miles of stop-&-go daily out to the country, with no public transportation alternatives.

I currently use a 1988 740 Volvo Turbo Station Wagon which gets just a shade over 20 mpg of the most expensive regular gas in the continental US, Oregon running highest in the nation.

We once were able to rent a Prius and LOVED it, but as I look at the economics, a hybrid doesn't make sense economically other than the eco-message it gives out.

Alternatives we are considering are:

1) Keeping the old dear running. Gas costs plus maintenance are cheaper than car payments or the equivalent paying back of my savings account.

2) Getting a nice Honda Fit, 40 MPG, about $16K. Costs more than #1, but cheaper than #3.

3) Springing for a Prius or Civic Hybrid, but unless gas goes to more than double, not really economically a good deal.

Am I missing some factor, other than maybe emissions? Crash safety is important, with my being surrounded by total idiots in their Big Truck SUVs.

chas

[BailOut]

Please also consider a Toyota Yaris. It has similar MPG opportunities as the Honda Fit but has so far had many less issues (as evidenced by True Delta), better quality control (as evidenced by a browse of the owner forums) and it costs thousands less. A liftback can be had under $13,000 and a sedan under $14,500.

As for safety, the Yaris has higher crash ratings than our 1996 Tacoma 4x4 does. heh In my area I am consistently the smallest car on the road and am often boxed in not just by over-sized vehicles like SUVs but also lots of utility vehicles, but it doesn't bother me anymore since they offer me drafting opportunities and I never saw that much interesting at a stop light anyway.

[WriConsult]

I'd agree with tbaleno: if cost is the primary consideration, either a $16k Fit or a $23k hybrid is going to take a few years to pay for itself, and financially you're probably better off sticking with your existing car unless the maintenance gets out of control. My wife is on her second '80s Volvo and the maintenance has been surprisingly reasonable for an old car.

Looking beyond cost to eco-mindedness, it's probably still a draw. Any new car, even a high mpg one, has a pretty substantial environmental impact in its manufacture. Of course a smaller car like a Fit or even a Prius is far less than a Hummer in that respect, but an older car is often just as "clean" a choice as long as it's running OK. On the flip side, your Volvo uses at least twice the fossil fuel as the cars you're looking at and emits several times the local pollutants as even the Fit. One more caveat on your Volvo is that if you haven't yet upgraded to an ozone friendly A/C (which cost us about $800 IIRC), it is doing some serious damage to the ozone layer. Overall though, my guess is the environmental cost is probably in the same league either way.

In terms of crash safety you're probably better off with one of the newer cars, especially the hybrids. Your Volvo has somewhat more mass: probably about 3100 pounds, versus 2900 for the Prius, 2750 for the HCH and 2400 for the Fit. The difference in mass versus the hybrids is negligible, though that is not the case with the Fit. In any event, mass isn't everything. Crashworthiness is at least as important, especially if an impact is with a fixed object or large truck where your mass doesn't play a role anyway. The newer cars you mention all have excellent crash test results and are equipped with multiple airbags, ABS and (optionally) stability control that your Volvo doesn't have.

Overall based on what you've said, I think any of the 3 choices you mentioned is going to be valid, and there probably isn't a whole lot of "eco" difference between the three. I will add that while my wife and I like the Fit (Yaris isn't an option, because it doesn't come in a 5 door hatch), if we were inclined to venture outside our used-car bubble to buying a new car, we'd spend the additional $7k to go for the Prius. It's still going to get far better mileage than the Fit (31 combined mpg under the new '08 EPA ratings, versus 46 mpg for the Prius) and should be somewhat safer due to the extra mass and available stability control.

[ckuttner]

Wow! I am really impressed with the many useful responses which came within 90 minutes. {I guess a lot of us are goofing off from work}

A few comments and tangents to the above posts:

I think the Yaris is a fun car. My daughter and her husband bought one last year and I was having a blast driving it last week. Reminded me of my old Beetle in handling. But I think the low-end Yaris does NOT have good crash stats, it's the slightly more expensive one with side airbags that does.

I should confess here: I'm cheap, but I also earn a pretty good income, being a psychiatrist. So I suspect that if one of our cars were to be totalled next week, I'd run out and buy a Prius. [I often tell people that I suffer from Prius envy.] The one most prominent emission from a Prius is "smug." I think it's the Oregon state car, with several living on our street.
The one biggest drawback to the Prius is that I like to go on long bike trips or otherwise leave a car parked for a week or more. A neighbor has had to repeatedly have her Prius towed because the battery runs down, and then she can't even unlock the car. One would think they'd put a charging cord on it. (Maybe a hand-cranked dynamo, looking like a Model T???)

If it comes down to Yaris vs. Fit, one of the factors will be if I can put my recumbent bike in the back. I am very impressed from what I read of storage in each of these. Prius is a fine car, but I'd need to put on a rack, at the cost of some mileage.

I bike on my short trips, take public transit when I can, and do think I'll learn even more good techniques for optimizing my mileage from this site.

Thanks much, folks!

[Chuck]

If you don't bill us much, we would love to hear your take on aggressive driving from the perspective of a psychiatrist. I content that just as many housecats revert to feral behavior, humans often do on the highway (humourous, but often fact).

We had someone do a presentation illustrating a Prius could carry a bicycle.

At any rate - welcome!

[BailOut]

I bet you could fit a recumbent bike in the liftback Yaris. Check this out: http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5660