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Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

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Old 09-14-2012, 09:48 AM
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xcel xcel is offline
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Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

Denso’s got a solution.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Denso_CS_Evaporator.jpg
Wayne Gerdes - CleanMPG - Sept. 14, 2012

Denso’s CS Evaporator system and the cutaway.

In a release late last week, DENSO has developed a Cold Storage (CS) Evaporator, which is supposed to limit the increase in vehicle cabin temperature during an idle stop when stop/start hardware is engaged. The CS Evaporator is equipped with a cold insulator, located in the heat exchanging area, which stores cold energy to be used to cool in-vehicle cabin air while the engine and air-conditioning cycle is off in the idle-stop state.

The Evaporator

An evaporator is driven by engine power to provide the “cold”. The cold refrigerant exchanges heat with warm air to send cooled or dehumidified air to the cabin. For conventional A/C, when the engine stops during an idle-stop mode, the A/C stops although in some Start/Stop systems; a low fan setting may continue recalculating cooler air until such time a temperature rise of a given amount is reached which restarts the engine even if still at a stop.

On higher temperature days, Auto Start/Stop may not engage at all in order to cool the cabin!

DENSO’s CS Evaporators

From the Denso PR, the CS Evaporator has the same size of a conventional evaporator but it can store cold energy more quickly and discharge cooled air more slowly. DENSO did it by installing a closed case with inner fins and a cold insulation inside. The cold insulation case is placed between refrigerant tubes, which the cold insulator directly and efficiently extracts cold energy from during the A/C cycle. When the A/C cycle is stopped, cooled air is slowly released from the cold insulation container via the outer fins connected to the refrigerant tubes.

With this system, storing “cold” can be completed even in a relatively short time of vehicle travel and cooled air can be supplied to the cabin for a long period of time.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:06 AM
08EscapeHybrid 08EscapeHybrid is offline
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

I wonder if this type of evaporator could be made as a retrofit for existing hybrid vehicles? I pretty much plan to drive the FEH till the doors fall off, so I'd definitely get my money's worth out of an upgrade.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

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Originally Posted by 08EscapeHybrid View Post
I wonder if this type of evaporator could be made as a retrofit for existing hybrid vehicles? I pretty much plan to drive the FEH till the doors fall off, so I'd definitely get my money's worth out of an upgrade.
But doesn't your computer automatically keep the engine running if the AC is on?
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:06 AM
08EscapeHybrid 08EscapeHybrid is offline
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

I have an "Eco" button on my a/c controls that allows start/stop while the a/c is on. If you can get the inside of the vehicle cooled well, you can get away with punching the recirc button as long as you're not stopped for more than 2 mins.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:19 AM
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

Why wouldn't you just always keep recirculate on?
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:37 AM
08EscapeHybrid 08EscapeHybrid is offline
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

I like fresh air. I usually leave recirc off unless its either extremely hot out, or I anticipate the engine will cut off within the next minute or so.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:46 PM
50 mpg by 2012 50 mpg by 2012 is offline
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

See if this sounds correct ...

An additional structure or mass built into the AC evaporator core providing a defined quantity thermal inertia.

The questions:

How many Btus of cooling can it store?

At what (normal cooling) temperature?

What are the thermal time constants?

Doesn't that thermal inertia cause a lag in initial cool down?

Will it delay cabin warm-up in heating mode?


Could something similar be accomplished with a larger one-way flow liquid refrigerent reservoir with regulated liquid release [thermostatically controlled temperature "demand"] into a "standard" evaporator? Would this strategy have shorter response times? And, possibly lower costs due to simpler fabrication?
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:12 PM
08EscapeHybrid 08EscapeHybrid is offline
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

I think the biggest hurdle to overcome for a pressurized refrigerant storage tank, is the increased volume of evil refrigerant that the system will require.
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:30 PM
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

this tech is crucial to anyone living in the south
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:40 PM
50 mpg by 2012 50 mpg by 2012 is offline
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Re: Auto Start/Stop with A/C is Tough

Quote:
Originally Posted by 08EscapeHybrid View Post
I think the biggest hurdle to overcome for a pressurized refrigerant storage tank, is the increased volume of evil refrigerant that the system will require.
I agree ... but there might be a way to minimize the refrigerant quantity and still function adequately for several minutes with engine off.

BTW ... I think someone told me that at least 1 ton AC capacity is required to cool a typical car in southern US summers. That's a bunch of cooling.

With a heat of vaporization of BTU/lb. 77.9 ... it might be difficult. Some creativity ... who knows?

Of course with adequate battery capacity ... there is the opportunity of a sealed electric compressor.



OTH ... off topic ... I designed and built a simple 64 ft^2 greenhouse with masonry floor and north wall that easily climbs more than 30°F above ambient (typically 90~100°F peak day time summer ambient) on a sunny day when closed. And, it is not covered with heat absorbing colored paint on any surfaces exposed to the sun. But it does have roughly 600 pounds of water for thermal inertia (heat storage), potentially more 24k Btus for a 40°F excursion night low to day peak.

Automatic and manual vents plus a fan limit internal rise to about 5 to 10°F above ambient depending on setup. Have been able to hold >40°F with ambient down to 18°F.

Last edited by 50 mpg by 2012 : 09-15-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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