Calls to scrap ethanol mandate intensify with drought

[ALS]

National security types, who like the fact that the 800,000 barrels a day of ethanol produced domestically is 800,000 barrels the country doesn't have to import from the Middle East or elsewhere.

Steve Hargreaves - CNN - August 7, 2012

The drought that's killing crops across the Midwest and sending corn prices to record highs has revived calls to end or ease the government's requirement that corn-based ethanol be blended with gasoline.

Current rules stipulate that nearly 10% of the nation's gasoline supply come from corn-based ethanol. To make that ethanol, up to 40% of the country's annual corn production can be required.

With corn prices surging -- they're up 50% in the last six weeks alone -- many say waiving the mandate would help bring those prices down. They say lower corn prices would also help lower prices for certain foods that depend on the crop, like cereal and meat.

"The impact this is having on the animal protein industry and at the dinner table is profound," Arkansas Republican Congressman Steve Womack said in a statement last week. "If something isn't done -- and done fast -- food prices will soar."... [Read More]

[08EscapeHybrid]

I agree, the mandate is probably not going to be lifted or eased, but this quote from the article bothers me:

There's also a contingent of national security types, who like the fact that the 800,000 barrels a day of ethanol produced domestically is 800,000 barrels the country doesn't have to import from the Middle East or elsewhere. That number represents nearly 10% of the country's oil imports.

Just about everyone on this site knows that 800,000 barrels of Ethanol would not take you nearly as far as 800,000 barrels of pure gasoline. I'd say that at best, 800,000 barrels of ethanol displaces 600,000 barrels of imported gasoline.

[RedylC94]

Right, I noticed that, too. The article is ambiguous---as if there's no difference---whether they're talking about that many barrels of imported gasoline, that many of crude, or the energy equivalent of that many of ethanol.

[08EscapeHybrid]

Yep, and don't get me started on the oil that goes into making fertilizers & pesticides to grow the corn, fuel used to tend the fields, harvest, transport it to the ethanol plant, process it into Ethanol, then once its Ethanol, it can't be sent down a pipeline, so it has to be trucked vast distances. After all is said and done, I feel the true number is closer to 800,000 barrels of Ethanol displacing less than 200,000 barrels of imports.

[rossbro]

My mileage dropped about 20% when this horsepiss was forced on the USA. We need to start producing nat gas vehicles as fast as possible so we can stop financing the Arabs to attack our troops.

[herm]

Originally Posted by 08EscapeHybrid

After all is said and done, I feel the true number is closer to 800,000 barrels of Ethanol displacing less than 200,000 barrels of imports.

Its a 21:1 ratio, it takes one gallon of oil to make 21 gallons of ethanol (could be diesel, I cant remember).. fertilizer and process heat uses natural gas and lots of it. Fertilizer is usually ammonia and you can actually run an engine on that.

Think of corn ethanol as a positive energy GTL process.

[Carcus]

Originally Posted by herm

.....fertilizer and process heat uses natural gas and lots of it....

You tell me how much "lots of it" is and I'll convert it to gge FOR YOU. And we can adjust your 21:1 accordingly.

How'd that be?



21:1, .... where the hell's that coming from, anyway?

/add, if the term EROEI isn't involved in a biofuel (or any renewable fuel) discussion ... you might as well wad it up and throw it in the trash.

[08EscapeHybrid]

As far as I'm concerned, corn ethanol used as motor fuel is a huge shell game. On the surface, its easy to say that its displacing fuel imports, however its what's going on in the background that truly disturbs me. Its designed to funnel subsidies and artificial demand onto corn farmers and energy companies. On top of that, your mileage goes down, so you have to buy more fuel. This is good for the oil companies, as you're buying more product, and its good for the Gov't, as they are collecting more fuel taxes as you are purchasing more fuel by volume, which is how they tax it.

The gov't will fight to keep the ethanol mandate, because if they allowed the ethanol mandate to stop, they would lose a lot of money in fuel tax revenue. Of course, they will smile and say they're helping farmers and the environment, while reducing imports, but the reality is that ethanol in your fuel raises their fuel tax revenue.

[herm]

Originally Posted by Carcus

You tell me how much "lots of it" is and I'll convert it to gge FOR YOU. And we can adjust your 21:1 accordingly. How'd that be? 21:1, .... where the hell's that coming from, anyway?
/add, if the term EROEI isn't involved in a biofuel (or any renewable fuel) discussion ... you might as well wad it up and throw it in the trash.

EROI on corn ethanol is 1.6:1, some POET plants have achieved 2.0:1 by burning corn stover (about 80% of the availalble stover, rest remains in the field for soil conservation purposes) for process heat, but its possible that using natural gas is actually cheaper than transporting the stover to the plant (and keeping it dry).

Rapier also rants on the EROI of corn ethanol but I think its not appropriate to look at that so much. We are taking our plentiful supplies of sunlight, farm labor, farmer expertise, natural gas and coal to make something that otherwise we would import from Saudi Arabia.. at the same time we have local jobs and can "discontinue" farm price supports for corn.

IIRC one gallon of oil plus one gallon of oil equivalent (methane and coal), plus corn to make 21 gallons of ethanol. You could improve that EROI quite a bit (double it) if your car could tolerate 80% ethanol and 20% water such as some cars in Brazil do. You cant mix wet ethanol with gasoline. Dont forget that the distiller's residue also has energy value if burned but it should be fed to animals (or humans) instead.

Perhaps we could do better converting the whole corn plant to methane and then ethanol..

Whats the EROI on a solar panel?..

Originally Posted by 08EscapeHybrid

The gov't will fight to keep the ethanol mandate, because if they allowed the ethanol mandate to stop, they would lose a lot of money in fuel tax revenue. Of course, they will smile and say they're helping farmers and the environment, while reducing imports, but the reality is that ethanol in your fuel raises their fuel tax revenue.

You make a disturbing point on our political system and taxes.

[Carcus]

Originally Posted by herm

Whats the EROI on a solar panel?..

The sources I see have PV in the 6 to 8 range. (Wind in the 20 to 35 range).