Originally Posted by WriConsult
But if we're going to consider generation efficiency, then to make a valid comparison with ICE engines we have to consider refinery efficiency, which is less than 100%.
If we're going to consider electric distribution efficiency, then we also have to consider the distribution efficiency of refined gasoline or diesel. It does take additional energy to push gasoline or diesel down the pip and/or get it around by rail cars, and then truck it out to the filling stations.
I agree that full analysis is required.
In fact most of that technology (not plug-ins) was recently done by wxman : 05-29-2012 at 03:08 PM.
Emissions comparison: US 2012 Passat TDI versus PZEV version of the 2012 Passat
Emissions comparison: EU Toyota Yaris Hybrid versus Ford Fiesta 1.6L TDCi
This was a very enlightening thread.
Now all we need are comparative results for plug-ins.
And BTW, here is an interest aspect of what is going on outside the US.
With a look at Regional geo-political statutory CO2 emissions requirements and competitiveness of markets!
The EU is currently under a binding target of 130 gCO2/km for OEM fleet average by 2015 with escalating financial penalties based on gCO2/km over target multiplied by total number of vehicles sold . Currently, the UK fleet average appears to be headed below 138 gCO2/km [about 43 mpg(US)] before 2013 with a 53% 2012 diesel market share.
However, the expected target for 2020 is to lower CO2 emissions to an OEM fleet average of 95 grams per kilometer [about 58/66 mpg(US) fleet average for gasoline/diesel respectively].
The penalty for noncompliance is €95 per gram over target multiplied by all vehicles sold by the OEM. A finalization of this objective is expected before August 2012.
China and India are following similar paths on a slightly delayed schedule. That would result in 73~84% of world automotive markets potentially above 55 mpg(US) fleet average by 2020.
Meanwhile back in the States, IF I understand correctly, the US will probably be “struggling” with a fleet average of about 38~40 mpg in 2020 based on the proposed 2025 CAFE being discussed. This could easily be 30% BELOW EU and worldwide statutory requirements and product.
Keep in mind that CO2 is an artifact (residue) resulting from hydrocarbon oxidation. The amount of WORK accomplished per unit of CO2 released is a measure of efficiency.
Released thermal energy (heat) is another artifact of combustion.
You will have to decide for yourself how important these are to you and your family/friends/neighbors/OUR nation.
EDIT: I had not read this complete thread. Thanks for the input WXMAN!
Thanks for the input on grid loss. I find it hard to believe that 1 step-up and 3 step-down transformers plus IR losses are less than 10%. But I'll try to remember the 7%.