New Tech from Delphi to boost FE

[NeilBlanchard]

The maximum efficiency of an internal combustion engine is ~54%. This improvement brings gasoline engines up around where diesels are already, right?

We already have electric motors that are 94% efficient.

That is why we still need plugin cars; both hybrids and pure electrics!

[50 mpg by 2012]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

The maximum efficiency of an internal combustion engine is ~54%. This improvement brings gasoline engines up around where diesels are already, right?

We already have electric motors that are 94% efficient.

That is why we still need plugin cars; both hybrids and pure electrics!

I generally agree with you about electric motor efficiencies.

However, average electric generation efficiency in the US is below 50% [average US coal plant 34% efficient], electric distribution probably is about 85%, and battery pack charging/discharging probably less than 85% (including related battery losses possibly even less) ...

Best guess ... efficiency is probably below 40% before energy even gets to the motor.

Just trying to think it through ...

Anybody get better numbers?

Hybrids no question ... inertial energy recycling and operational optimization at cruise as demonstrated by Hyundai for example.

Plug-ins will become even more important as all aspects of the system improve from energy source to the wheel-road interface.

None the less ... ICEs are not done yet!

Mercedes’ compact saloon gets a hi-tech, downsized petrol engine that promises diesel-like economy

... this summer (2012) http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...-turbo-c-class

[WriConsult]

But if we're going to consider generation efficiency, then to make a valid comparison with ICE engines we have to consider refinery efficiency, which is less than 100%.

If we're going to consider electric distribution efficiency, then we also have to consider the distribution efficiency of refined gasoline or diesel. It does take additional energy to push gasoline or diesel down the pip and/or get it around by rail cars, and then truck it out to the filling stations.

[herm]

how about if you have solar cells on your roof?.. I doubt the efficiency of those is any better than 15%.

Careful when you use that word efficiency, its all relative... it may be applicable to this discussion of ICE vs Electrics if we still used oil to generate electricity at the powerplants and we dont.

[diamondlarry]

Interesting concept they have there. If you were to up the compression to around 20:1 and use the piezo-type injectors to direct inject the fuel and make the gasoline engine a compression ignition, this could get very interesting.

[EdwinTheMagnificent]

Why so far off into the future when Mazda and the Koreans have GDI now?

If I understand this correctly, the Delphi system is way more than direct-injection, it uses compression ignition much as a diesel does. This is something that automotive engineers have been trying to do for DECADES , and the supporting tech hs finally caught up. This is gonna be interesting.

[wxman]

Originally Posted by WriConsult

But if we're going to consider generation efficiency, then to make a valid comparison with ICE engines we have to consider refinery efficiency, which is less than 100%.

If we're going to consider electric distribution efficiency, then we also have to consider the distribution efficiency of refined gasoline or diesel. It does take additional energy to push gasoline or diesel down the pip and/or get it around by rail cars, and then truck it out to the filling stations.

According to Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model (http://greet.es.anl.gov/), diesel is on average about 82.5% efficient in the well-to-pump stage, gasoline is 80.2% efficient, and electricity about 40.4% based on the current U.S. grid mix.

EV uses less energy overall well-to-wheels however, according to the GREET model.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Originally Posted by 50 mpg by 2012

electric distribution probably is about 85%

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=105&t=3

"According to EIA data, national, annual electricity transmission and distribution losses average about 7% of the electricity that is transmitted in the United States."

[waltermlee]

compression ignition for 10% ethanol regular 87 oct gasoline would be interesting but the plus eight years makes it blue sky. I wish them the best though.

[50 mpg by 2012]

Originally Posted by WriConsult

But if we're going to consider generation efficiency, then to make a valid comparison with ICE engines we have to consider refinery efficiency, which is less than 100%.

If we're going to consider electric distribution efficiency, then we also have to consider the distribution efficiency of refined gasoline or diesel. It does take additional energy to push gasoline or diesel down the pip and/or get it around by rail cars, and then truck it out to the filling stations.

I agree that full analysis is required.

In fact most of that technology (not plug-ins) was recently done by wxman : 05-29-2012 at 03:08 PM.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showp...58&postcount=3

Emissions comparison: US 2012 Passat TDI versus PZEV version of the 2012 Passat
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=10

Emissions comparison: EU Toyota Yaris Hybrid versus Ford Fiesta 1.6L TDCi
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=19

This was a very enlightening thread.

Now all we need are comparative results for plug-ins.

And BTW, here is an interest aspect of what is going on outside the US.

With a look at Regional geo-political statutory CO2 emissions requirements and competitiveness of markets!

The EU is currently under a binding target of 130 gCO2/km for OEM fleet average by 2015 with escalating financial penalties based on gCO2/km over target multiplied by total number of vehicles sold . Currently, the UK fleet average appears to be headed below 138 gCO2/km [about 43 mpg(US)] before 2013 with a 53% 2012 diesel market share.

However, the expected target for 2020 is to lower CO2 emissions to an OEM fleet average of 95 grams per kilometer [about 58/66 mpg(US) fleet average for gasoline/diesel respectively]. The penalty for noncompliance is €95 per gram over target multiplied by all vehicles sold by the OEM. A finalization of this objective is expected before August 2012.

China and India are following similar paths on a slightly delayed schedule. That would result in 73~84% of world automotive markets potentially above 55 mpg(US) fleet average by 2020.

Meanwhile back in the States, IF I understand correctly, the US will probably be “struggling” with a fleet average of about 38~40 mpg in 2020 based on the proposed 2025 CAFE being discussed. This could easily be 30% BELOW EU and worldwide statutory requirements and product.
http://delphi.com/pdf/emissions/Delp...-2012-2013.pdf

Keep in mind that CO2 is an artifact (residue) resulting from hydrocarbon oxidation. The amount of WORK accomplished per unit of CO2 released is a measure of efficiency.

Released thermal energy (heat) is another artifact of combustion.

You will have to decide for yourself how important these are to you and your family/friends/neighbors/OUR nation.

EDIT: I had not read this complete thread. Thanks for the input WXMAN!

ItsNotAbout ...

Thanks for the input on grid loss. I find it hard to believe that 1 step-up and 3 step-down transformers plus IR losses are less than 10%. But I'll try to remember the 7%.