User Name Password    
CleanMPG, Learn to raise fuel economy and lower emissions in whatever you drive.  
MENU
• What is hypermiling? •
CleanMPG to AAA:
• Hypermiling Rebuttal •
 
Home
CleanMPG Staff
Articles
Fuel Economy Forums
      • Register
Go Hypermiling!

   Car Reviews:

2013 Elantra GT

2013 Elantra Coupe

2013 Lexus ES 300h

2013 Mazda CX-5


2013 Lexus GS 450h

2012 Prius c

2013 Malibu Eco

2012 Hyundai Accent
   Bike and Gear Reviews:

HTC Thunderbolt

2010 R 1200 GS (A)

Kawasaki KLX250SF

Zero S


Aerostich Darien

Shoei Hornet DS

Honda CRF230L

Yamaha XT250


More Reviews
Gallery
Mileage Logs
 
CleanMPG Store
 
Calendar
Glossary
Garage
Files
 
Research
Related Sites
 
Archives
Arcade
 
Monthly Fuel Efficient •
Vehicle Sales Figures


ScanGauge with X-Gauge: $159.95

Pre-programming, a CleanMPG laser cut decal, and shipping included!



Even better value for members only is available in the latest SG-II w/ X-Gauge Group Buy purchase thread.



While we strive to provide only the highest quality information through our members' offerings, if you find the information provided valuable, please consider a donation so that we can offer an even better experience for the membership and guests well into the future.

Thank you

-Wayne Gerdes
Owner/Admin
CleanMPG



Home Fuel Economy Forums Gallery Mileage Logs

Register FAQ Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   CleanMPG Forums » Information » In the News


In the News News items that may be of interest. These show up on the front page.
Only Moderators may start threads, but anyone can respond to them.

Welcome to the CleanMPG forums.

Some posts may describe situations which may in some cases be unsafe or illegal in some jurisdictions. Please use common sense and consult your local laws to make sure you do not hurt yourself or others or break any laws.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view discussions, articles and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact support.

The dirty secret about clean cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-28-2007, 10:16 PM
xcel's Avatar
xcel xcel is online now
PZEV, there's nothing like it :)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Vehicles: Accord, Ranger, and anything else ;)
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 42,640
The dirty secret about clean cars.

President Bush and the Big Three are pushing cars that run on ethanol. But the policy may be doing more harm than good.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2007_E85_Capable_Chevrolet_Impala_with_George_Bush.jpg
Moira Herbst - Business Week Online - Mar. 28, 2007

General Motors Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner gives President George Bush a quick tour around an E85-capable Chevrolet Impala at a White House meeting this week.

President George W. Bush enjoyed a high-profile photo-op Mar. 26 with the heads of the Big Three automakers and their latest clean-car models. The impressive lineup included a General Motors model that can run on ethanol, a plug-in Ford powered by hydrogen, and a DaimlerChrysler (Jeep filled with a biodiesel blend. It was smiles all around as the automakers announced they would make half of America's vehicles ethanol-ready by 2012. "If you want to reduce gasoline usage—like I believe we need to do so for national-security reasons as well as for environmental concerns—the consumer has got to be in a position to make a rational choice," said a beaming Bush.

But there's a dirty secret about clean cars. The policies for flexible-fuel vehicles—those that can run on mixtures of gasoline and more than 10% ethanol—are written in such a way that they result in a number of unintended consequences. One result is that automakers gain some leeway in meeting fuel-economy standards if they produce flexible-fuel cars and trucks. So Detroit's automakers have been pumping out hundreds of thousands of the vehicles, even though most consumers have no access to alternative fuels because they're available at only a fraction of U.S. gas stations.

Here's why that's an issue. Automakers need to meet certain government standards for the fuel economy of their fleets. For flex-fuel cars, fuel economy is calculated based on the assumption that their owners use 50% gasoline and 50% ethanol. But the reality is that just 1% of the nation's flexible-fuel vehicles actually use what's known as E85—85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. The remaining 99% are using good old-fashioned gasoline.

More Greenhouse Gases

The result is anything but green. The more flex-fuel cars and trucks that are produced, the more gasoline is consumed—dramatically increasing greenhouse gas emissions and deepening the country's dependence on petroleum. The Union of Concerned Scientists estimates that without the policy in place, the U.S. would have burned 4 billion fewer gallons of gasoline since 1998. "Automakers have an [economic] incentive to sell cars less efficient than the law requires," says Don MacKenzie, a vehicles engineer for the Union's clean vehicles program.

Environmental advocates aren't shy about voicing their outrage. "It's a total scam," says Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club's global warming program. "The automakers are trying to shield themselves from having to make more efficient vehicles. They're avoiding the path to cutting oil dependence, curbing global warming, saving consumers money, and ultimately saving Detroit from competitors like Toyota."

The culprit is a 1988 law called the Alternative Motor Fuels Act, which has been extended through 2008. It gives automakers extra credit toward meeting fuel-economy standards for making cars that can run on alternative fuels. It's cheap for automakers to make cars fuel-flexible; it only costs them about $50 per vehicle, whereas actually meeting fuel-economy standards (making cars travel more miles per gallon) can be much more expensive. So in recent years auto companies have been pouring out flexible-fuel, gas-guzzling sport-utility vehicles without worrying too much about fuel economy.

Shortage of Ethanol Pumps

But, as the Bush Administration itself acknowledged in 2002, the consumers who own flex-fuel cars aren't going for alternative fuels. Ethanol-based fuels like E85 are hard to come by, and are only available in certain regions of the country. Only 1,600 of the nation's 176,000 gas stations pump E85, the most popular and commercially viable alternative fuel, says the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition (NEVC). So the more flexible-fuel vehicles that hit the road without an ethanol pump in sight, the more pure gasoline Americans continue to guzzle.

Ethanol advocates say fuels like E85 are a right-here-right-now solution to reducing oil dependence. "[T]here's nothing that can be done which can reduce the curve of growth in imported oil and actually turn it down like using E85, taking advantage of what's there today," said GM Chairman and Chief Executive Officer G. Richard Wagoner Jr. at the White House event.

They also argue that the mismatch between the size of the flexible-fuel fleet and the availability of ethanol will be solved over time. "You've got to get started somehow," says Phillip Lampert, executive director of the NEVC. Lambert points out that the number of gas stations providing E85 has doubled in the last year, and his group—backed by automakers and ethanol producers—is pushing for bigger tax incentives for fuel retailers.

Still, the conversation that Bush and the Big Three avoided on Mar. 26 was talk of fuel economy. In the short term, it's far cheaper for car companies to keep producing cars that seem environmentally friendly than to re-engineer cars to squeeze out more miles per gallon. Until the U.S. has much broader availability of alternative fuels, old-fashioned gas guzzling will continue to rise into the not-so-green future.

Thanks BrucePick!
__________________
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 05:34 AM
AshenGrey's Avatar
AshenGrey AshenGrey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Vehicles: 2003 Civic Hybrid
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 413
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

Maryland has exactly FOUR ethanol pumps in the entire state, and only two of them are for public access. What a joke. Corn ethanol is also a joke since the process requires fossil fuels. Bush's energy policy is hollow.
__________________
----------------------------------

Compassionate Conservatism: An American Oxymoron


----------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #3   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 06:37 AM
Dan's Avatar
Dan Dan is offline
KiloTanked in post 153451
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vehicles: 2007 Toyota Prius, 2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,293
Smile Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

Good thing those hydrogen fuel cell cars are coming out (next summer right?) . Can't wait for the new Hydrogen Shell stations to arrive either.

This ethanol thing must be a ruse get people back on the Hydrogen economy

11011011
__________________

Best commute = 14.3mi @ 114 MPG (sg2)
Best (non-trivial) tank = 1101mi @ 91.2 MPG (fcd)
MPG Centurion-Hybridfest 2007-Prius II-26mi @ 106 MPG (sg2)
Dan <11011011>
Reply With Quote
  #4   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 07:17 AM
Chuck Chuck is offline
just the messenger
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Vehicles: 2000 Honda Enzyte 5-speed MIMA, CalPod, SGII
Location: Greater Dallas
Posts: 22,878
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

I'm glad the mainstream media is starting to report this fraud.
__________________
All is vanity
Reply With Quote
  #5   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 08:24 AM
Chuck Chuck is offline
just the messenger
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Vehicles: 2000 Honda Enzyte 5-speed MIMA, CalPod, SGII
Location: Greater Dallas
Posts: 22,878
Guess Who is Condeming BioFuels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castro in Granma
...more than 3 billion people in the world were condemned to die prematurely of hunger or thirst from plans by his ideological foe, the United States, to convert foodstuffs like corn into fuel for cars
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17850102/
__________________
All is vanity
Reply With Quote
  #6   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 09:02 AM
brucepick's Avatar
brucepick brucepick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicles: 1997 HONDA CIVIC HX Manual (M5), ScanGauge
Location: CT
Posts: 502
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

I remember reading or hearing that the petrol-sourced energy required to produce ethanol (farm equipment and processing etc.) is greater than the energy ultimately produced by the resulting ethanol.

Does anyone have a reference on that?
__________________

1997 HONDA CIVIC HX Manual (M5) ScanGauge, MPGuino, running 54 psi. Currently ~ 47 mpg avg (summer).
Reply With Quote
  #7   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 09:36 AM
BailOut's Avatar
BailOut BailOut is offline
My favorite holiday is Earth Day!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Vehicles: 2007 Toyota Yaris Liftback
Location: Reno, Nevada, USA
Posts: 1,733
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

Here you go, brucepick: http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/debunking/

That link contains info on the report you're looking for as well as (supposed) 3rd party studies that refute the imbalance claim.

This is going to be a tough one to get to the bottom of as we can't trust any of the information completely. The corn growers, oil companies and government bodies all have their own agendas when it comes to ethanol fuel and the university studies are rather cursory.

Wow... deja vu...
__________________
- Brian

My commute
Share the Road
Reply With Quote
  #8   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 10:07 AM
brucepick's Avatar
brucepick brucepick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicles: 1997 HONDA CIVIC HX Manual (M5), ScanGauge
Location: CT
Posts: 502
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

Thanks, BailOut.

I'm reminded of one of my favorite acronyms:
NFTAAFL
No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!

I wish we could get information that truly was independent.
Oh well, vote with your wallet and vote again on Election Day.
__________________

1997 HONDA CIVIC HX Manual (M5) ScanGauge, MPGuino, running 54 psi. Currently ~ 47 mpg avg (summer).
Reply With Quote
  #9   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 10:07 AM
BlueBulletIP BlueBulletIP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vehicles: Insight MT and Prius
Location: Thiensville WI
Posts: 31
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

Highly ironic that outsiders may have a clearer picture of the US energy policy (or lack of)
than many Americans?
Reply With Quote
  #10   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-29-2007, 04:32 PM
AshenGrey's Avatar
AshenGrey AshenGrey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Vehicles: 2003 Civic Hybrid
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 413
Re: The dirty secret about clean cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BailOut View Post
Here you go, brucepick: http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/debunking/

That link contains info on the report you're looking for as well as (supposed) 3rd party studies that refute the imbalance claim.

This is going to be a tough one to get to the bottom of as we can't trust any of the information completely. The corn growers, oil companies and government bodies all have their own agendas when it comes to ethanol fuel and the university studies are rather cursory.

Wow... deja vu...
I don't have the reference, but the article I read stated that 70% of ethanol's "green value" was eaten up by the fact that it takes large quantities of fossil fuels to develop the final product. Add to that, you have the fact that ethanol has only 75% of the energy value of gasoline. Thus, your true "green value" of corn-based ethanol is a single-digit percentile.

I believe that cane-based ethanol is a different story, however. You can use much more of the plant, and the stalks can be planted closer together. Unfortunately, most of the United States does not have a good climate for sugar cane.
__________________
----------------------------------

Compassionate Conservatism: An American Oxymoron


----------------------------------
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First results of new crash tests. xcel In the News 7 03-03-2007 10:53 AM
Race is on to bring "Electric Sports Cars" to market with PICS: tigerhonaker Other Manufacturers 0 10-01-2006 07:47 PM
Smart cars finally roll past hurdles. xcel In the News 8 08-30-2006 01:19 PM
Smaller cars set to flex their muscles. xcel In the News 0 04-01-2006 06:47 PM
Clean Tech Open Challenges Californians to Compete for Green. xcel In the News 0 03-22-2006 10:23 AM



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2006 - 2013, Clean MPG LLC. All Rights Reserved.