The Sonata On Trial

[SentraSE-R]

When I lived in Anchorage, Alaska (61 degrees N latitude, 5-1/2 hrs daylight on the winter solstice), I drove a V-8 powered 4500 lb. International Harvester Scout 4x4. It averaged 11 mpg in the summer, with a high of 16 mpg. In the winter, it only averaged 5 mpg.

[phoebeisis]

Darrel.
Yeah, that-5 mpg- sounds about right-Alaska(on TV) is filled with light trucks- Sister and brother in law live in Wasilla- own a Jeep GC and a F-250 4X4 of course.
Most folks in cold climates don't measure their mpg, lie about it, and estimate it as MUCH MUCH better than it is.
The OP was HONEST about his mpg- it was such an unusual number that he and everyone else was STUNNED.Many(even folks here) probably thought he was lying.We- forum folks- are so accustomed to seeing crazy good numbers, that we don't credit horrible numbers.
It is a credit to this forum that no one actually called him a liar.Pretty sure other forums chased him off- calling him a liar.
Normal "folks" regularly LIE about winter mpg.Well they usually don't measure they say "I fill up every 3 days" or" I get 230 mile per tank" or some such .They assume they are getting EPA numbers.


BIG ASIDE- Who made the V-8's in those International Harvesters(which V-8 was it)? When did IH go out of the "car light truck business"?? I see one once a month at most now a days?
Charlie

[SentraSE-R]

High five for the OP for swallowing his pride, showing an open mind, and taking up Chris' offer. Not many people would allow a total stranger to run his car through the wringer.

Charlie, IHC built its own truck motors, except for the Nissan-built diesel option that came in the Scout IIs. I had the small 304 cu. in.? V-8. The larger V-8 option was about 345 cu. in.

[MaxxMPG]

A couple of points to make...

• I don't believe that the OP had to swallow pride to meet with me. In fact, he was waiting to meet with me. He wanted to solve the mystery. He was properly calculating miles on the odometer and gallons pumped into the tank, and the math showed fuel economy in the 13mpg range on a car rated 22. That'd tick me off as well. The following steps he took were to contact the dealer and the manufacturer, and in fairness to the dealer, they did test the car and didn't write it off as "they all do that", as dealers so often do with owner complaints. The missing piece of the puzzle, from the OP's point of view, was the knowledge of EPA test FTP75 - speeds, distances, stops, and idle time - and how that test compares to the commute the car travels every day. Learning this, and then working to improve fuel economy on that route is something he can be proud of, because he is on the path to reduced fuel consumption.
• It is rare for people to lie, at least deliberately with intent to deceive, about their fuel economy. They may grossly overestimate their mpg, but it is not a conscious attempt to deceive anyone. They don't count gallons and miles and if pressed, they will just tell you a rough guess of how much it costs for a week's worth of gas. In fact, very few people care about FE until the price of gas forces them to deal with it. And even then, their method of calculation is flawed, as in "I can go 100 miles from full to 3/4 on the gage" - when that is much more than 1/4 of the tank's capacity.
• The OP wouldn't have lied about the fuel economy, whether deceptively overstating or understating it, because there would be no point. The time and effort undertaken are not worth the payoff. My take on the issue is that the OP was looking for people online who were getting good FE from their Sonata so he could conclude that his car was therefore out of spec. He wasn't looking for others who agreed that the car wasn't capable. Think about it - this is something we all do with our cars - we look for what others can wring out of the same make/model and use that for our own goals. And we can all understand the frustration felt when the weather or traffic don't cooperate and we end up with a bad tank average. To track down bad FE, use the multiple choice option: C, D, or E. Car, Driver, or Environment (traffic/weather/terrain). In the case of the Sonata On Trial, the problem was (E), but I demonstrated that tweaking (D) minimized the impact of the fixed variable (E). And that was all that was needed to prove the car's "innocence" in our case.
• I didn't run the car through the wringer, but drove in a manner that reflected the EPA test, but within the limitations of weekend traffic. No hypermiling techniques were used, other than DWB (which is just safe driving), light timing, and smart braking. The car was always in drive, and the engine was always on. No NICE-on, no Pulse and Glide, no FAS, nothing that could push the car past EPA without measurable change in average speed or trip time. The purpose of the test was to demonstrate that the car was within spec and capable of getting close to EPA city with nothing more than changes in driving technique. If not for a very long two-cycle traffic light stop (coming home) and two long lights and prolonged wait for a left turn (heading out), the trip MPG from the last two tests would have been roughly 1.5-2.0 mpg higher. Getting that close to EPA in that traffic environment - with slower speed and much more idle time than FTP75 - is a challenge, and beating the EPA is possible with beginner/intermediate techniques. But it takes a lot of work to make it all come together within the chaos on the road ahead.

I am thinking of taking on another case, and this will be a SantaFe On Trial. The car ('08 SantaFe AWD Limited) is showing 13.7 on the aFCD. This car is driven by the wife of my friend, who you read about in A CleanMPG and Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max success story. Seems she has noticed that he's only using about half as much gas as she does, and she wanted to know why. So he started teaching her what I taught him, and she is actually working on integrating everything into her daily commute. I plan on meeting with them this week to see what I can do for vehicle setup and then a mini-clinic to see what can be done. So stay tuned, and be sure to send me any comical Perry Mason photos so we will have them on retainer as our defense attorney during the next trial.

[phoebeisis]

Darrell,
Wow,I always assumed that IH used a GM or Ford off the shelf motor( like the old Checker cabs- I think they used a GM or Ford straight 6 for many years??)- I had no idea they actually built their own motors and trans.

MAXX- I overstated the LIE about FE a bit.
I do know PLENTY of folks who exaggerate their FE. As you say it isn't a lie, they just don't measure their FE or measure it by the old"I get just 280 miles a tank or fill up once a week."
Now I do know some OUTRIGHT LIARS "20 mpg while towing 7500 lb house trailer with 2000 F250 7.3 TD" - current F250 might come pretty close to that - the 2000 7.3 no waaaaay.
Thanks
Charlie

[PaleMelanesian]

Originally Posted by MaxxMPG

I didn't run the car through the wringer, but drove in a manner that reflected the EPA test, but within the limitations of weekend traffic. No hypermiling techniques were used, other than DWB (which is just safe driving), light timing, and smart braking. The car was always in drive, and the engine was always on. )

I disagree. DWB, light timing and smart braking are a critical and foundational part of both hypermiling and smart driving. You can FAS and P&G all you want, but if you don't have the basics down you might end up using more gas. Hypermiling IS safe driving first, with an added benefit of mpg.

[MaxxMPG]

Andrew,
My "No hypermiling techniques were used, other than..." probably should have said, "Only the basics were used, and intermediate techniques were left on the buffet table." Trying to drive according to FTP75 in modern traffic conditions requires hypermiling basics because there is no other way to come close to the average idle time and number of stops. For the light-to-light daily grind, we need an acronym for "take your feet off the pedals" - maybe DICE-on?

I remember telling the driver (during the last test, when I was in coaching mode) that the buffer ahead was critical to good FE and safety. Concentrating on your car's placement on the road and the traffic ahead, along with this buffer, virtually eliminate the chance of running into the car ahead and wondering how it happened.

Speaking with another one of my "students" last night, he told me that these basic techniques (DWB, light timing, smart braking) become part of your driving routine and before long, you realize they have become automatic and your default method of driving. He said it has put the fun back in driving, and the higher level of awareness and attention to the road have made him see and anticipate much more of the events going on up ahead.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Originally Posted by MaxxMPG

Andrew,
My "No hypermiling techniques were used, other than..." probably should have said, "Only the basics were used, and intermediate techniques were left on the buffet table." Trying to drive according to FTP75 in modern traffic conditions requires hypermiling basics because there is no other way to come close to the average idle time and number of stops. For the light-to-light daily grind, we need an acronym for "take your feet off the pedals" - maybe DICE-on?

DICE-on. 1. n. Coasting in a motor vehicle with foot off pedals, engine running, the car in gear and the brake not being pressed. Short for car in Drive, Internal Combustion Engine on. C.f. NICE-on.

[2011. Back-formation from NICE-on. Coined by Chris Bernius on an Internet forum at cleanmpg.com on March 7th 2011]

I remember telling the driver (during the last test, when I was in coaching mode) that the buffer ahead was critical to good FE and safety. Concentrating on your car's placement on the road and the traffic ahead, along with this buffer, virtually eliminate the chance of running into the car ahead and wondering how it happened.

My commute home includes a 45mph road with no reliable passing opportunity where I can almost guarantee one or more cars ahead will brake to turn off. The hypermiler's advantage is that by not being in a rush to overtake, there's no reason to get close.

Speaking with another one of my "students" last night, he told me that these basic techniques (DWB, light timing, smart braking) become part of your driving routine and before long, you realize they have become automatic and your default method of driving. He said it has put the fun back in driving, and the higher level of awareness and attention to the road have made him see and anticipate much more of the events going on up ahead.

Ramen to that.

[phoebeisis]

Many folks here never use more than the basics
1)Motor on pulse and glide in D or N
2)Slight increase in tire pressure- side wall max-42-45 psi or so in most vehicles
The above is worth about one EPA size class in heavy pure city driving(large SUV gets midsized mpg)
Shutting off motor at redlights worth about another 1/2 step down.
On the HY-slight tire pressure increase and CC set to 62 mg get 125% of EPA- assuming you stay off brakes, and dial speed down for road work or slower cars in L lane.
The easy stuff costs maybe 1.5% time penalty-but you get one size down FE

[sonata2011se]

Hey all,

I am new to this site but I think I am going to like it.

Thank you for the post. I have read this post, the "beat the EPA", and the post that caused this post to be put up. I am a Sonata owner and I am experiencing low gas mileage as well. I do believe it is due to my driving but I want to make sure.

Current I have a 2011 Sonata SE 2.4 with 3146 miles on it. I get about 18 to 19 MPG. But I tend to keep the car under 3000 RPM unless I am changing lanes or picking up speed. most of the time I am under 3000.

I do have active eco but I do not us it because it kills the response times in my car.

So my question is: when is the break in period for gas mileage?

Thank you for any help you can offer.