Will Consumers Buy The Chevy Volt And Nissan Leaf?

[ILAveo]

Originally Posted by quads4444

I ....

From the initial estimates that I have seen so far EV's are not competitive with gas at the top tier 24 cent kWh rate I pay in Long Beach Ca.

Yikes, my electricity is less than half that. I'd put in solar at that price. I'd also wager that you could make your own using natural gas for less than that, if there aren't any laws against it.

[atlaw4u]

We pay 4 cents a kwh for off peak use here in southwest Colorado. Add a small premium and that electricity is produced by the wind or solar.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Originally Posted by quads4444

I hate to rain on the parade but....

Notice how in all the hype on EVs it is very difficult to get any figures on power use (kWh) per mile. Wouldn't it be one of EVs strongest selling points if it were cheaper to drive than gas. Yet we don't hear anything about that.

Hmmm. Could it be that there is something they don't want us to know? Once we know the kWh per mile we can easily calculate cost per mile by multiplying the kWh/mile by our top tier electricity rate on our monthly bill.

From the initial estimates that I have seen so far EV's are not competitive with gas at the top tier 24 cent kWh rate I pay in Long Beach Ca.

I think they aren't publicizing kWh/mile for three reasons:
1) the perception is that people care about the range.
2) kWh/mile will vary significantly, just as the range will
3) The charging efficiency is a significant component, will vary depending on your home and quoting kWh/mile will just end up annoying people who didn't know they need to factor the charging efficiency in.

That said, if you want to be conservative you can use 0.25kWh/mile. But as an example TheForce's last tank on his HyMotion Prius was something between .18 and .19kWh/mile, with a good commute and switching between EV and HEV.

But at $0.24/kWh forget EV unless it's something like a PHEVrius and the total consumption would be low at 110kWh/month or less and that wouldn't push you into the high tariff. As ILAveo says you could look into solar and NG home generation if that would also help.

You could also check for a peak/off-peak tariff. Many providers have them but don't push them. With a good off-peak tariff you could save significant money on night-time charging. Although it would be offset some by higher day-time costs, for anybody who can make proper use of the Volt or LEAF (i.e. plenty of commuting) their car would consume so much electricity that night-time savings would outweigh higher daytime costs. Unless they work on a night-shift in which case they're screwed unless they can plug in at work.

[Mendel Leisk]

Originally Posted by quads4444

I hate to rain on the parade but....

Notice how in all the hype on EVs it is very difficult to get any figures on power use (kWh) per mile. Wouldn't it be one of EVs strongest selling points if it were cheaper to drive than gas. Yet we don't hear anything about that.

Hmmm. Could it be that there is something they don't want us to know? Once we know the kWh per mile we can easily calculate cost per mile by multiplying the kWh/mile by our top tier electricity rate on our monthly bill.

From the initial estimates that I have seen so far EV's are not competitive with gas at the top tier 24 cent kWh rate I pay in Long Beach Ca.

I was wondering the same thing. Here's a link I found:

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reason...-of-operation/

To summarize, it proposed the electric-only range as 40 miles, and the cost to fully charge the Volt ranging from $0.48 to $1.034 (US dollars, considering US nation wide electricity prices as of 2007).

[ALS]

Based on your numbers the Volt it is 35% the cost of a Prius to run but costs 1.64 times as much to buy.

With the initial cost plus charging station the Volt is going to have to be driven well over 100,000 miles before you even come close to breaking even over owning a TDI, HCHII, Insight II or a Prius.

If your going to compare two cars the Insight II and the Volt are probably the best match up. If you compare the new Cruze MPG against the Volt it will get really ugly on the difference on payback for the additional cost of the Volt.

[EVuser]

KWH costs. The numbers likely don't line up neatly, I tried a couple of times and couldn't get them to post correctly.

	tier 1	tier 2	tier 3	tier 4	tier 5
	base	130%	200%	300%	over 300%
Peak	$0.30142	$0.31765	$0.47307	$0.58292	$0.58292
Part-Peak	$0.14865	$0.16488	$0.32030	$0.43015	$0.43015
Off-Peak	$0.08700	$0.10324	$0.25866	$0.36851	$0.36851

Above is PG&E rates on a TOU E-6 residential. Baseline varies but it is around 140 KWHs (typo on baseline should be 340 sorry)

More common PG&E E-1 rate
$0.11877 $0.13502 $0.29062 $0.40029 $0.40029

If you live in a state with cheap energy enjoy it while it lasts. It is this kind of rate structure that could soon be coming to you.

Here is the E-9 rate designed for BEV owners
http://www.pge.com/myhome/environmen...ng/index.shtml

So certainly it would be wise to investigate your own rate structure before deciding on a BEV. And to repeat what has already been said figuring cost per mile based upon KWHs is going to vary widely. Even worse than gas prices.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Originally Posted by EVuser

KWH costs. The numbers likely don't line up neatly, I tried a couple of times and couldn't get them to post correctly.


Above is PG&E rates on a TOU E-6 residential. Baseline varies but it is around 140 KWHs

More common PG&E E-1 rate
$0.11877 $0.13502 $0.29062 $0.40029 $0.40029

If you live in a state with cheap energy enjoy it while it lasts. It is this kind of rate structure that could soon be coming to you.

Here is the E-9 rate designed for BEV owners
http://www.pge.com/myhome/environmen...ng/index.shtml

So certainly it would be wise to investigate your own rate structure before deciding on a BEV. And to repeat what has already been said figuring cost per mile based upon KWHs is going to vary widely. Even worse than gas prices.

140kWhs? Per month? I guess nobody cooks or dries with electricity there.

It makes our $0.148/kWh look cheap.

Looking at the tiers I can see why they'd need a separate rate for EVs because otherwise nobody would have one. An "Experimental" rate isn't a good thing to base the purchase of a $30k+ vehicle on.

[Jough96Accord]

My last months bill was for 29kwh. The bill was for 31 days, that's less than 1kwh per day. I have a decent, not too expensive solar setup. I'd like to see a package deal available for EV purchases. Maybe buy the car and get a good deal on a PV array. Or buy a PV array and get a discount on a car? There are tax credits on both. Someone better at math could run the figures on a 5kw system and see how that all fits together.

[EVuser]

I fixed my typo in the baseline rate in my above post. It varies all over the place and with the season but runs from a low of about 220 to a high of about 595 and varies by season from one area to the next. If you live in a mild climate like SFO area it is low, in a hot place like Bakersfield it is high.

In any case these tiered rates are the reason CA folks use the least amount of electricity per household while enjoying some of the highest bills.

My apologies for multi-tasking and not catching it. Not that the baseline is anything most people can live within.

[Butterfly Mage]

Just to put the Volt into perspective, I did a 606-mile drive yesterday in my Insight-II. I averaged 56.9 MPG, which means that I used 10.6 gallons of gasoline. If I owned a Volt, the first 40 miles would have been on electric, but the rest of the drive would have been at 33 MPG (300 mile cruising rage / 9 gallon tank = 33.3 MPG). If I had driven yesterday's drive in a Volt, I would have consumed 16.99 gallons of gasoline.

The Volt may have it's place, but buyers should make sure they're using the right tool for the right job -- especially since the Volt will cost 2.25x more than an Insight and 1.7x more than a Prius. In my prior job, I often drove several hundred miles each day. A standard hybrid would have beaten a Volt hands-down.