WOW just WOW!!!!

[phoebeisis]

psyshack-

What reading - is it the quality control of those VWs?? I've heard-maybe here-that there wasn't any quality control-lotta' problems-until 2005 or so. Apparently the problems with various systems just continued year after year with no obvious effort to correct them?

Or do you mean the slight anti hybrid bias over there?
Some of them do get great mpg- not quite Prius(especially city) mpg, and certainly not old Insight mpg- but very good mpg.Not quite HCH(either) mpg either.Not Metro mpg either. Fun car by all accounts-when they are running right.

Charlie

[psyshack]

Originally Posted by phoebeisis

psyshack-

What reading - is it the quality control of those VWs?? I've heard-maybe here-that there wasn't any quality control-lotta' problems-until 2005 or so. Apparently the problems with various systems just continued year after year with no obvious effort to correct them?

Or do you mean the slight anti hybrid bias over there?
Some of them do get great mpg- not quite Prius(especially city) mpg, and certainly not old Insight mpg- but very good mpg.Not quite HCH(either) mpg either.Not Metro mpg either. Fun car by all accounts-when they are running right.

Charlie

The mpg is good enough city or hwy. I don't do a lot of city driving over all. Mostly rural road and hwy. There seems to be some turbo problems, turbo control problems. Some of them seem to be caused by light driving and not blowing the turbo out thus keeping it clean. And then there is the always poor VW dealer service dept's.

I really did enjoy driving the one I drove,,, big time! Can't even compare it to the HCHII. The MZ3 would be the comparison for me. A tad bit more refined, did not handle as well as the 3, but close over all. Enough power to get out of it's own way. But more importantly power that could be used. Just a little grunt away from making a pass, pulled hills very well. TQ its a wonderful thing when not ruin by a AT tranny. The FE was just icing on the cake.

If they could make hybrids drive like this car it would be a major move in the right direction. And I feel more folks would get on the MPG, green bandwagon.

[Student Driver]

psyshack -- Glad to hear you like the last car I bought (well mine's a wagon, but close)

I know exactly what you mean when it comes to reading tdiclub can be scary. I've lurked around reading that site as well as vwvortex on and off for years. Like yourself I've owned several Japanese cars (including a Mazda3s kinda like you) and I have no delusions that my new VW well be as no-brainer reliable as those cars. However, there was nothing else in this price range as a wagon or suv that was nearly as fun to drive as this. Same thing with fuel economy, the only thing that was close with the utility this has is the Escape hybrid which seemed like a step up in price but a step down in other aspects, at least with the things that were important for me.

Its funny that some things kinda reminded you of your 3. That's my impression too. Obviously there are differences and areas where one does better than the other, and vice versa, but they both just seem to have the fun factor.

Do you know if there are decent places to service VW's and/or TDI's near you? I looked at the regional section on tdiclub and found that there was a couple great options very close to me. If there isn't anything close to you, it might not be the best car for you. I say this despite the fact it would be cool if you got one, as I'm sure you'd figure out good tips for with us, but I think its something you should consider. The more I read the more I think most of VW's poor reliability image is caused by the unfortunate fact that there are a lot of dealers that make the situation worse.

[seftonm]

Originally Posted by Student Driver

The more I read the more I think most of VW's poor reliability image is caused by the unfortunate fact that there are a lot of dealers that make the situation worse.

I feel that way too. VW dealers have satisfaction ratings near the bottom of the bunch. I know of one particular dealer not too far from here that does a good job. Everybody I talk to in the region covered by that dealer seems quite happy with their VW's. The same cannot be said for here, where our dealers are sometimes questionable in their work.

[WriConsult]

VWs are a blast to drive, but you do pay for it in maintenance. I believe a lot of what I read at tdiclub (except the predominant anti-hybrid BS). Once the car's been around a few years get used to there always being something wrong with it. I have no reason to believe the new ones will be any better. As long as I can remember, people get excited that the latest generation of VWs might be more dependable than the last, and every time they get marginally better but still disappointing.

Mostly minor stuff on the Golf TDI at the moment, although we have had to slap down about $2500 for an injector pump late last year. The left passenger window started getting stuck occasionally a few months ago and has since stopped working. The right rear seatback can't be released because the release broke when the seatbelt got stuck behind it. Also the lanyard holder on the $300 switchblade key (of which we have only ONE because we bought it used) has a gap in it, causing it to sometimes fall off key keyring, and my wife's come close to dropping her key down a drain a couple times already. I'm dreading the call when she finally loses the key, and we have to have it towed to a stealer AND wait a week for the expensive replacement key to get shipped in.

On the gas Jetta wagon it's also mostly just nuisance stuff. I've had an ongoing cooling system CEL since I bought the car that won't go away. The over-engineered cooling system is all gunked up because some idiot put stop-leak in it (before I bought it), and now I see why because the last few weeks I've started to have a slow leak and have to add a cup of coolant weekly or so. I've had the water pump replaced twice (second time was under warranty) and my non-stealership mechanic thinks the gunk may have had something to do with it. Now a month ago it started having driveability problems the first block or so when cold and it started throwing the dreaded P0102 code at the same time, so I guess I'll have to spring for a new MAF. Also the left rear window has gotten stuck a couple times, same as on the Golf. Normal maintenance issue but the shocks are starting to go -- but at least that gives me an opportunity to get the metalnerd lift kit installed and fix the stupidly low ground clearance. Blasted Europeans never leave paved roads, I guess.

But really, they are GREAT cars if you're willing to live with a few problems. They are a helluva lot of fun to drive and very well appointed for their class. The gas models are disappointing in FE, but at least I'm managing to average 32-33mpg in town in a car rated for 21mpg, and the TDI's mpg is untouchable: typically around 40-ish in town with my leadfoot wife driving, and 50-ish on roadtrips. I have gotten 54mpg on a trip, and pulled 60+mpg two years in a row at the Lacey, WA Fuel Economy rally. I know my wife doesn't EVER want to part with her Golf until it hits at least 300k, although I'd have gotten a Matrix or Fit instead of the Jetta it had been in the budget. At least the Jetta was cheap. If used TDI wagons weren't so insanely expensive we'd have gotten one of those instead of the Golf for her and to serve as the family roadtrip car, and a 5sp HCHI as a commuter car for me.

[Student Driver]

Originally Posted by WriConsult

VWs are a blast to drive, but you do pay for it in maintenance.

I've been reading this site for a couple years and before that the driveaccord forum for a year or so. If I remember correctly if psyshack keeps this car about as long as he has the last few times he won't pay for maintenance since its covered for the first 3 years 36k and by then it will be time for something else.

Now, if you consider you have to go to a VW dealer to have that maintenance performed for free, and risk them doing something like overfilling it with oil as has been reported, you may have the opportunity cost associated with your time going to/from the dealer to correct the things they break.

[psyshack]

Originally Posted by Student Driver

I've been reading this site for a couple years and before that the driveaccord forum for a year or so. If I remember correctly if psyshack keeps this car about as long as he has the last few times he won't pay for maintenance since its covered for the first 3 years 36k and by then it will be time for something else.

Now, if you consider you have to go to a VW dealer to have that maintenance performed for free, and risk them doing something like overfilling it with oil as has been reported, you may have the opportunity cost associated with your time going to/from the dealer to correct the things they break.

You are right. I haven't kept a car over 4 years in the last ten years except the Ranger. The Ranger will be 9 years old very soon.

Maint. issue's are not a problem. I would never take the dealer up on there so called free maint. I take care of that myself.

I do have concerns about the Jetta. I question VW's over all ability to deliver a reliable car. Thus this site would have to have some money spent on there products. http://www.ross-tech.com/ The other is pricing. I will not pay MSRP or ABOVE to purchase a car. I will only pay a tad above invoice for the new hottest thing on the road. And prefer well into, if not all the hold back. Getting great deals up front is what allows me to trade down the road and not get hurt. Both of the VW dealer lots I've been on in the last week have been worse than any Yota dealer I've ever been around. I will hit the next VW sales person that tells me the Jetta has been Autobahn crash tested at 95 mph. I don't _ucking care. I tell them. Do not sell me the car. I don't need to be sold. Here is my number. Take it or leave it. Here's my card, I'm in sales. Meet my numbers and you can have me driving that new car off in less than a hour. You haven't a clue what a good car dealer is like until you have found one like my Honda dealer. Not a clue. To bad Honda has nothing I want except CR-Z. And I figure they will have it so screwed up it won't be worth buying.

I'm willing to wait for 2010 and see how the Jetta does on the road over all. And see how hungry the dealers get. They may have cars. But they are worthless unless somebody want's to buy them.

I will be around and have a job as long as I care to show up for work. Our year end was June 30th. Looks like we will have the best year ever in co. history for my dept. The rest of the co. is very healthy a long with almost doubling our territory a past rep sorely mismanaged. Just bought a new co. truck for when we need a big rig. I'm purchasing a new Laser Alignment system today. A new office should open in Little Rock with a new co. wide computer system. Plus bonuses come Oct. Bet I'm at my job longer than all the car sales people I deal with.

[WriConsult]

Jeff, do you have a Costco in your area? A Costco membership is a surefire way to get a car for below sticker. It's a no-negotiation situation from the buyer's perspective, except that it isn't a ripoff like Saturn's no-dicker stickers. And exact deal varies depending on the deal negotiated between Costco and the local dealer they've chosen for each make, but it's usually a fixed percentage or amount below sticker or above or below invoice, and usually a better deal than most people can negotiate on their own.

It also gives you negotiating clout elsewhere: When I bought my 2000 Outback the Costco-chosen Subie dealer didn't have what I wanted on the lot, so I went over to a competitor and flashed my Costco card anyway. They knew I'd get the Costco deal no matter what, so they matched it and I drove off the lot with a brand new Subaru stickered at $24k for just $21k.

Our experience talking to salespeople at other dealerships has been that although they hate it, most of them will grudgingly tell you they'll match the Costco deal if it comes to that.

Funny thing was while we were signing the paperwork on the Subaru, one of the sales guys walked in with a bunch of pizzas for all the customers. The guy looked us and said half-jokingly that these were only for customers that they made a profit on. I told that d1ck that if they weren't going to make money on it they wouldn't have sold us the car. No one held a gun to their heads. Hey, anytime you get such a good deal it ticks them off you know you've done something right.

I imagine that OK is probably more Sam's Club than Costco country -- does Sam's offer a similar buying service?

[psyshack]

Originally Posted by WriConsult

Jeff, do you have a Costco in your area? A Costco membership is a surefire way to get a car for below sticker. It's a no-negotiation situation from the buyer's perspective, except that it isn't a ripoff like Saturn's no-dicker stickers. And exact deal varies depending on the deal negotiated between Costco and the local dealer they've chosen for each make, but it's usually a fixed percentage or amount below sticker or above or below invoice, and usually a better deal than most people can negotiate on their own.

It also gives you negotiating clout elsewhere: When I bought my 2000 Outback the Costco-chosen Subie dealer didn't have what I wanted on the lot, so I went over to a competitor and flashed my Costco card anyway. They knew I'd get the Costco deal no matter what, so they matched it and I drove off the lot with a brand new Subaru stickered at $24k for just $21k.

Our experience talking to salespeople at other dealerships has been that although they hate it, most of them will grudgingly tell you they'll match the Costco deal if it comes to that.

Funny thing was while we were signing the paperwork on the Subaru, one of the sales guys walked in with a bunch of pizzas for all the customers. The guy looked us and said half-jokingly that these were only for customers that they made a profit on. I told that d1ck that if they weren't going to make money on it they wouldn't have sold us the car. No one held a gun to their heads. Hey, anytime you get such a good deal it ticks them off you know you've done something right.

I imagine that OK is probably more Sam's Club than Costco country -- does Sam's offer a similar buying service?

We have Sam's Club. No Costco here. My mother works for Costco in Phx. And checked into there service and did better on her own than Costco could do on her recent Versa purchase. It's a family trait.

I sell pumps, boilers, chillers, steam traps, controls and parts. I never sell anything at List price Except one sump pump co. we rep. does not give us any break on parts pricing. But it's rare for one of there pumps to break if it's sized and installed correct. Not uncommon to see them go 20 years with out being touched. Say a pump list at $10k I will go out at a .50. OTD $5k plus shipping and tax if applicale. That includes my face to face time, engineering, start up, tech support with parts and labor warrenty less the mech. seals. of which I will warrenty many times if your a good cust. And we get no warrenty labor cost back from the factory's. If we get into a bidding war over product from a rep from a diff. product line we can ask for and receive better multi's from the factory. More times than not we don't make a dime on a sale until warrenty is over. Then we make it back on parts. And even then parts are sold 25% to 30% below list price. And then on top of that I will provide full support and docs/insturctions to the cust. I will even rent you RO meters with doc's for balancing and trouble shooting. With a phone call I will bring the full power and benfit of full factory support right to the engineering level to a cust. Be it a $100 pump or steam trap, to a $100k sale. I work on straight salary with yearly incentive that is shared co. wide. with a very good benny package. We do not and will not work on a commission. Commission sales bring in employee greed. Bad engineering and a single mode way of looking at the cust. and your responceblity to the cust. ( take a car saleman and tech or service manager) And then the co. can always screw you on it with the swipe of a pen. Here the cust. is truley the most important part of the co.

For me a car sales person or sales manager is nothing more than a perfume counter sale person. I show them no mercy!

[warthog1984]

Originally Posted by WriConsult

Jeff, do you have a Costco in your area? A Costco membership is a surefire way to get a car for below sticker. It's a no-negotiation situation from the buyer's perspective, except that it isn't a ripoff like Saturn's no-dicker stickers.

You've never seen Jeff negotiate. Let's just say that the next big $ car I buy, I'm buying Jeff a plane ticket & steak dinner for the family if he'll haggle for me. I'll still come out ahead.