The Thousand Dollar Challenge

[lightfoot]

Originally Posted by PaleMelanesian

My enthusiasm for electric vehicles has taken a big hit recently. I still consider it the way of the future, provided the power source is a clean one.

I just found out that our local power plant, Martin Lake, is one of the dirtiest in the country. In 2005, it was number ONE for mercury emissions. It's in the lists for top producers of most other pollutants, notably sulfur. It's located 15 miles south of me, and our usual wind blows from the south.

This multi-county area in east Texas is right at air quality non-attainment levels. It's better than Dallas and Houston, but only marginally. We don't even have auto emissions testing, because that's not where our pollution comes from. It's all from industrial sources.

I support the future of electric vehicles, if the electricity supplier is clean.

Does your electrical power deliverer offer you alternatives re where the power comes from? Ours here does, and has a clean/sustainable energy option which I chose. I calculated it costs me about $10/month more. Not sure it is a perfect solution but it may be better than the other alternatives?

And yes I too would like to see this thread article-ized because it states so clearly the parameters of the present (almost said "current") situation.

[Shiba3420]

I think part of the issues is that individual companies do individual things, and they don't want to cross over.

Head back into the wayback machines & look at "Beef Industry". The man (not the stockholders) who owns the company realizes that there is alot of perfect cattle land out west, but while he could raise beef there for cheap, he couldn't get it to his customers. So he gives up...No! Wait, unlike todays companies, he doesn't. He damn near goes broke, building a new railroad. In building it, he bought his own steel mill, lumber companies, built several small towns, employeed an army of people. And created a a passenger rail service too. In the end, he not only ends up with a very profitable beef business, but all these other businesses too. We don't have people like that any more. Even those who could afford such a mass undertaking, don't. Kind of a sad day isn't it?

I'll admit, that more of these people went broke trying to build their dream than succeeded, but even those that failed were usually bought out by others who finished it and turned it into something. But without big risk, there is no big name.

I have the feeling that people like Bill Gates will be forgotten within a generation of their death. True, he created an empire and I'm sure there will be some documenteries somewhere, but where is our modern Rockefeller, Carnegie, or Vanderbilt?

[PaleMelanesian]

Originally Posted by lightfoot

Does your electrical power deliverer offer you alternatives re where the power comes from? Ours here does, and has a clean/sustainable energy option which I chose. I calculated it costs me about $10/month more. Not sure it is a perfect solution but it may be better than the other alternatives?

And yes I too would like to see this thread article-ized because it states so clearly the parameters of the present (almost said "current") situation.

Yes, we do have options for renewable / clean power. Unfortunately, in my case, it's more like $150 / month more. I'm ramping up my efforts to cut my usage instead.

[bomber991]

Besides the battery problem with electric cars, you still have the problems of doing stuff like air conditioning.

So $1,000 for 100 miles of range with the batterys? That's $10 for 1 mile range.

Hmm, with Lead acid batteries, I'm not totally sure on the average pricing, but I'm looking at one site that has a 12 volt 40 Ah battery, I guess that would give you 480 Watt-hours, and I think cars use around 250Wh/mile. So that's like 1.92 miles from a $92 battery, nearly $48 per mile . Besides that cost, you can't fit enough to get 300 miles out of a car either, even with 10 of these filling up the trunk you're only looking at 19 miles range.

I wonder how much worse the cost is for NiMH and Lion batteries.

[Right Lane Cruiser]

Justin, the figure is $1000 per KWH... not per 100mi. The Ford BEV is spec'd out at 23KWH for 100mi of range (with a built in safety buffer around the depth of discharge to avoid damage to the chemistry).

[brick]

No, Justin is right. The $1000 for a 100mi range is what I figure as the right price point to be entirely competitive with current gas and diesel vehicles. Part of that is is just fuel storage, part of that is stuff like he points out: you have to figure out heat, A/C, etc. that will cost a bit to develop and implement.

I guess the fact that this doesn't work now is exactly my point. If we figure it out, we have really done something.

[Right Lane Cruiser]

Oops! I mixed this up with that article earlier today that GM was complaining about.

[ILAveo]

Originally Posted by Shiba3420

......

Head back into the wayback machines & look at "Beef Industry". The man (not the stockholders) who owns the company realizes that there is alot of perfect cattle land out west, but while he could raise beef there for cheap, he couldn't get it to his customers. So he gives up...No! Wait, unlike todays companies, he doesn't. He damn near goes broke, building a new railroad. In building it, he bought his own steel mill, lumber companies, built several small towns, employeed an army of people. And created a a passenger rail service too. In the end, he not only ends up with a very profitable beef business, but all these other businesses too. We don't have people like that any more. Even those who could afford such a mass undertaking, don't. Kind of a sad day isn't it?

....

Actually the history differs from your description. The history may be instructive in other ways though. The railroads reached west due to a federal land grant program (like a subsidy except the railroads got land to develop and sell if they put the RR through) that was sponsored as part of a national infrastructure project to link the nation. Cattle production in Texas rose when the railroad terminus got near enough for cattle drives. Railroad construction was critical in creating the US iron and steel industry. The federal seed "money" for the railroad construction helped create the businesses that led the Carnegies and Vanderbilts (and presumably some cattle barons) to their fortunes.

Today, people compare construction of the internet backbone to the creation of the rail network. Google and Intel would be the post modern analogs to Carnegie's and Vanderbilt's companies. The Google founders' involvement with electric cars is well known and it is worth noting that Intel is a leader in Smart Grid technology. I'm not pessimistic about finding solutions to problems--though Google and Intel may not be the ones who find them!

[Kurz]

I guess I am a hopeful fool.
Still I honestly believe there is a discovery to be had.

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/

[Shiba3420]

Originally Posted by ILAveo

Actually the history differs from your description.

That wasn't intended to be a description of a "real" specfic event, however history is filled with such people, I'm not sure our current time is.