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Prius injector Xgauge

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Old 09-25-2008, 12:20 AM
hobbit hobbit is offline
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Prius injector Xgauge

The project to build more Prius Xgauges by observing what some
enhanced-mode scantools send to the car has started up. With
the caveat that there are still some bizarre data formats, I'll
field suggestions as to what other hitherto-mysterious parameters
might be useful -- I've only really just begun looking at this.
Some of the bits-n-bytes details are in my other running thread
about network protocol.
.
To summarize from there, I believe this pretty closely gives
fuel injector time in milliseconds for the Prius:
.
_ TXD 07E021F3
_ RXF 0461 85F3 0000
_ RXD 3808
_ MTH 000A 0008 0000
_ NAM inj
.
[I separate pieces of RXF and MTH for clarity in seeing what
they do, but you'd enter them as one long string.] Depending
on small rounding errors which the scantool[s] may or may not
have, MTH may want to be 000A 0008 0001 instead.
.
Now, here's the fun part -- why it's good to have. As many of
us know the Prius does quite a bit to optimize throttle control
and load in response to driver demand, but always stay on top
of the "mound" on the BSFC chart for best efficiency. This
translates to high torque, lowest needed RPM most of the time.
Remember the IGN 14 "valley" that one must sort of fight with
to optimize during gentle acceleration or SHM? Injector time
gives a much easier way to keep track of those boundary conditions
some of us like to run in with the engine under good load but
at the lowest RPM we can manage without letting it unload.
.
There seems to be a definite "plateau" of operation beginning
around 5.0 milliseconds, when the injector pulse widens out
to supply enough fuel to produce high shaft torque. This
happens right before RPM begins to increase appreciably to
increase overall power output; as RPM increases the injector
time slowly widens out further to 6 and slightly beyond, and
even up to around 7 as you push 3000 RPM which for many of us is
as much "emergency hill-climb warp" as we're willing to give it.
Watching injector time isn't so useful on the high side other
than to try and keep a bit of a lid on it, but is definitely a
significant factor on the low side since it indicates a> whether
you're under load or not, and b> about where you are on the
"possible RPM" scale inside of which you'll stay under load.
The magic area seems to be from 5.0 to 6.something-low milliseconds,
and trying to stay down near the low end of that range is yielding
some really good segments.
.
In other words, it appears to be about as close as an Xgauge
gets to being that "sweet spot meter" I was fooling with a
couple of years ago. That concept was in fact based on fuel
injection, but integrated over time not quite the right way.
It's easier to read than the IGN 14 thing since as you unload
the engine, IGN can jump back up toward 17-18 as conditions
head back basically toward idle and it's sometimes difficult to
figure out which side of that "valley" you're on. In addition,
IGN 14 doesn't show up at speeds above 53 or so MPH, which if
you're out there doin' the 60 @ 60 dance isn't the right way
to know your sweet spot. But injector time still shows the
loading condition up into higher speed ranges, and tooling
along above 60 MPH with the injectors locked in at 5.1 has
the iMPG bar pegged right at 75 or 80.
.
Which segues into some of the equivalent conditions that one
might observe in a stock, uninstrumented Prius, making it mostly
possible to benefit from these observations even if there's
no scangauge or tach to be had. Assuming a speed of around
55-60 MPH, here's a quick chart of rough operating parameters
within the relevant range, matched up for comparison:
.
Code:
        iMPG    RPM     inj
        70      1500    5.1 - 5.2
        50      1800    5.5 - 5.7  [seen over a fairly wide range]
        35-40   2000    6.0 - 6.2
.
It's the same RPM range as we've discussed numerous times as
being the most efficient band to stay in for highway travel;
there's a reasonable correlation to iMPG at 60% SOC under
steady-state conditions. This is about as close to DWL as a
Prius gets, in fact. Much under 1500 and the engine rapidly
unloads -- I've been seeing this with my vacuum gauge for
years, so I'm intimately familiar with that "knee" that happens
with insufficient foot pressure. But the injector time really
shows that dropoff very sharply, and a quick glance to determine
if we're at 5 or better allows riding that RPM down as far as
we absolutely dare to hold a speed on the interstates in best
fuel-sipping style.
.
Now, that "loaded RPM" range definitely shifts downward with
vehicle speed. Even a fairly gentle startoff from the line
yields injector times of high sixes or 7.x at ridiculously low
RPMs like 1250, as high torque is produced to help takeoff.
Wayne observed this when he was driving the Classic around. Once
you hit about 30 MPH, the "I'm just loaded at 40 iMPG" axiom seems
to hold true, so if conditions allow acceleration at that sort of
rate [it's still pretty slow!] it will do much to *not* destroy
your running average. I began playing with this by a bit of
guesswork [not watching "inj" yet] back at the "automotive
challenge" event in NJ on the Pine Barrens flatlands, trying to
hold 40 iMPG and just letting the car slowly build speed -- even
on those 50 mph roads, I came back showing 72.something average in
the MFD after 140 miles. If I'd had the more immediate indication
of "inj" at the time I might have done even better.
.
Now, unfortunately it's not all that immediate since it's an
active OBD-II query. I don't know if injector time is one of
the bits of data flying around the bus we could listen to --
if it was, the number would change almost instantly. I've
already found that placing my foot at the right place involves
a little guesswork and then waiting for the update, and
adjusting from there. A glance at the tach or the MFD can
help confirm what's going on a little faster.
.
What I'd appreciate if some Prius pilots want to try this out,
is to see if you don't find some really sweet tipping points
around 5.1 ms that's probably the direct equivalent of SHM.
And keeping track of this for applying minimum expenditure
during low speeds and accelerations can really help overall
averages -- like I've said before, there are some big
differences to be had depending on how the front end and
back end of a trip segment are handled. Hopefully this can
help.
.
_H*
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:07 AM
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JimboK JimboK is offline
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

My gut has suggested that injector timing might be useful to monitor in CAN-View. I generally haven't continuously watched IGN on my highway trips, in large part because it's available only on one of my less favorite (design-wise) CV screens.

So on my most recent highway trip (two months ago) I started playing around with INJ (are we coining a new SG-style parameter abbreviation?). I don't recall most of the numbers right off, but IIRC I held it fairly steady in the 6-6.5 ms range. I had the laptop/data capture hooked up on this trip, but I've procrastinated badly since then and have done absolutely nothing with the data. This will give me the excuse to pull it together and chart it.

This was a hilly road coming out of the Blue Ridge foothills, so my goal was not to attempt any semblance of SHM but instead to find a situation-specific sweet spot -- and one possibly more useful in general than SHM on central Virginia highways -- where I could keep the number fairly steady while not slowing to a crawl uphill or risking a ticket downhill. Occasionally the hills were steep and long enough to transition to warp stealth -- so much the better. Apart from those and the occasional drops in PSL through small towns along the way (this was a non-interstate), I was able to keep INJ readings fairly steady (+0.5 ms) throughout a wide range of speeds without having to chase it like IGN sometimes requires.

FE for the ~100 mile trip was 72 MPG -- a little misleading because of a 400' net elevation drop and about 8 miles of mostly P&G near the end, but I was pleased.
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:06 PM
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Aether glider Aether glider is offline
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

I'll plug it into my SG and see what happens.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:03 PM
hobbit hobbit is offline
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that the injection time
figure "freezes" at engine shutdown, and doesn't go back to
0. This is a known issue with several PIDs in the Prius, so
something else is needed as an engine-run indicator [RPM, a
blinkielight, etc].
.
_H*
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:14 PM
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

When you get into warp stealth the injectors do go to 0 for some reason but when you get back below 41mph they go back to a random number.

I'm guessing it does this because when in WS the engine is turning and injectors don't need to be ready to spit out fuel but when the engine is not spinning the injectors need to be open and ready to spit out fuel. Thats just my guess as I have no clue on whats really going on.
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:15 PM
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

I had a small trip this weekend (around 400 miles) I noticed inj of 4.8 was a nice ride. around 80 mpg. 5.2 or so yielded around 50-60mpg based on my terrain. I couldn't hold that 4.8 long before my speed dropped off. It is easier to hold instead of the IGN window.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:57 PM
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JimboK JimboK is offline
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

Two items to report. First, I forgot that CAN-View’s data capture records injector timing in some unknown units in the hundreds. It converts it to a presumably accurate reading for the display (though that is open to question -- see below), but no one (other than Norm) seems to know the divisor with which to convert the raw data. (Jay, did you ever get Norm to tell you?). This chart shows the relationship between speed and injector timing values from the data file for a 75-mile segment of my August trip:



The average fuel injector value in the data file for this segment is 797. The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking 6.5 was my display target, which gives a divisor of 123.

Second, m’lady and I took a highway trip to Norfolk this past Saturday, 105 miles one way. This was a pleasure trip, so I wasn’t watching CV as closely as usual, nor did I have the laptop hooked up. But recalling Hobbit’s report here of 70 iMPG at 1500 RPM, I tried to sustain those numbers (and mostly succeeded) at 60 MPH for several miles on a flat section of highway. Injector readings stayed pretty consistently around 7 ms.

So between that and the aforementioned 6.5 target (or thereabouts) of my August trip, it is obvious that either CV or SG is off in reporting the injector value.

Nonetheless, the concept seems valid. I too see a plateau, in my case beginning at about 6 ms. Off the line I see a spike easily exceeding 8 ms. Now if we can figure out which device is reporting it correctly (and pin down the divisor for my raw data)….

Hobbit, don’t you have some way to measure it directly?
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:25 PM
hobbit hobbit is offline
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

Thanks for the feedback. Hmm, more work is needed.

It looks like you're reading a full millisecond greater than
what I am. I worked up the MTH for this to match what I see
on the autoenginuity scantool, and got it pretty close ... also
remembered from someplace that reading in eighths or tenths or
various weird fractions of a millisecond is common in the EFI
industry. I see that 1450 or 1500 @ 70impg reading *5.1* ms
or thereabouts.
.
What I *haven't* done is take a scope to it to watch the physical
duration, and it sounds like I need to do that and see if either
the ECU is lying [and sheez, I hope this isn't another '04 quirk like
the LOD] or which of the three digital means is doing the wrong math
on it. Watch this space...
.
_H*
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Old 10-08-2008, 10:46 PM
hobbit hobbit is offline
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

Okay, I took the o-scope out cruisin' this afternoon. First I
made sure the scope timebase is accurate by cranking a 1 KHz test
tone into it; on fixed 1 ms/div timing I got that waveform riding
very nicely as one cycle per gridline all the way across.
.
It looks like using MTH of 000A 0008 0001 to tack on that extra
tenth of a ms brings things a little more accurate -- using the
xgauge as specified above with that one minor change makes it not
only match the scantool, but also match what I see on the scope
pretty closely. The mul-10 and div-8 math seems to match the scope
at both the low and high ends of the scale, i.e. there's a linear
correspondence that doesn't drift. The time I'm using is the
injector-driver drop to ground until the transistor lets go of
it, after which the voltage peaks high positive from the inductive
kick. I'm not counting the quarter-millisecond close time since
that's also offset by about the same delay it takes to open -- those
are analog effects that the ECU won't see.
.
So here's what I see for various running conditions:
_ base idle in neutral, once warmed up: 1.8 - 2.0 ms @ 1000 RPM
_ gentle-ish accel around 1500 rpm: 6.2 - 6.4 ms [varies, try @ ~25 mph]
_ force-charge at 40 amps: 5.8 ms
_ 3000 RPM "maximum warp" on the highway: 6.8 - 7.0 ms
and when cruising on the highway, I can drop as low as 1350 or
1400 rpm and still stay "loaded" at 5.1 ms or so before things
really drop off.
.
If you're seeing wide variance from that on the can-view, I would
begin to suspect that Norm's reading the wrong thing or not
doing the math quite right, or your car's reporting something
differently. What year, again?
.
Anyone else had a chance to play with this yet? I need a little
validation help here, esp. before I foist this one off onto Ron
to add to the documents.
.
_H*
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Old 10-08-2008, 11:50 PM
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Re: Prius injector Xgauge

Hi Al:

___I want to go back to the base premise about this 1,500 RPM and above pulling the great FE. SHM via IGN14 is a 1248 RPM type cruise and yields 70 + under the light load with the speed constraints we all know about when applicable. The PHEV when out on the highway forced IGN14/RPM < 1,300 at speeds up to 62 mph from my short time behind the wheel of Francis’ Hymotion which was surprising.

___My second question is wrt injector timing request. Is this a passive CAN request? Can you display the injector time along with active SOC and another?

___Thanks in advance.

___Wayne
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