2-year Honda NGV (GX) owner

[hughem]

I've owned my '06 Honda GX for just over 2 years now. I wanted to buy a Honda NGV (natural gas vehicle) earlier, but they had not re-engineered the Civic since '98 and I didn't want to buy a 7 year old car, NEW.

Motivations included:
Wanted to stop funding OPEC, and terrorists they pay to leave THEM alone.
Disagreed with treatment of women in the Islamic faith. Most of OPEC is Islamic so...
Wanted to do something about environment.
Wanted to save money.

In the Los Angeles area, CNG is available in a few places, but not like gasoline. I've found Burbank to be the most convenient and lowest cost, probably due to subsidy for its use in airport transit vehicles and refuse trucks.

I can get CNG in enough places to drive to (and back from) Las Vegas, San Diego and San Francisco. I'd fly anywhere farther away.

I also have a PHILL by Fuelmaker installed next to my driveway where I park my car. It will re-fill about 1/2 the tank overnight. I've actually driven the car 270 miles before refueling so their range claims are accurate.

The benefits:
Natural Gas is the only fuel we have in relative abundance that is "clean" and requires no significant energy to process before it can be used in automobiles. Hydrogen takes energy to "make" or isolate, electricity is made using coal or natural gas, and gasoline isn't clean, is made from oil we don't have, using energy in the "cracking" process.

Quoted MPG of 39. I've gotten 39, but generally get 36 as I tend to be an ANTI-hypermiler

The U.S. produces 85% of its natural gas, remainder comes from Mexico and Canada. We have LOTS of natural gas and NEVER need to buy it from homicidal maniacs and clitoris-slashers. (although I'm never quite sure about Quebec)

Oil change lasts 10,000 miles due to no carbon in the fuel -- less to dirty the oil.

Engine (expected) to last FAR longer -- ditto.

Alternative fuel vehicles get a WHITE sticker that DMV never runs out of, not the YELLOW one they never have enough of. (ask a Prius-owner who got HOSED!)

In many cities like L.A., with a white or yellow sticker, you don't put money in parking meters.

If you fuel at home, you can file with Sempra (the gas company) or whoever yours is, and get ALL you natural gas at motor fuel rates (lower). The gge is around $1.10 (for the gas itself, plus factor for cost of pump).

CNG (bought commercially) pumps in around two minutes and now it's around HALF the cost of gasoline!
So, even though some hybrids get better mileage, I'm paying WAY less for the fuel, so I'm not funding OPEC, driving cleaner and paying less per mile as well.

The drawbacks:
The stereo that comes "standard" in the LX-level car is really poor. Replacing it requires replacing the entire dashboard! There is only one other one, (the EX-level unit) with navigation etc., and it is too much $$$. The original stereo does play MP3s from CD, but there is no auxiliary connection for an iPod or other media player.

There is only one power accessory socket (used to call them cigarette lighters) in the whole car. Since this is intended to be a commuter car, it's stupid to not have them in the back!

The CNG tank consumes about 1/2 the trunk, preventing the rear seat from folding down, reducing cargo space and flexibility.

The oil filter is in a really inaccessible spot, so you'll want to have a service do it.

There is no trunk release on the remote key-fob. I really miss this from other cars oddly enough.

Honda puts a roughly $4,000 premium on the car, and since you order it, there is no bargaining -- it costs more than a 4-door Civic LX.

There is supposedly a federal "tax credit" but Honda takes the whole thing, and you don't get it anyway! It turns out that you only get the whole credit if you pay taxes on an adjusted gross income of $250,000 or MORE! So, again, it's hose the poor and fund the rich! When will our politicians learn that rich people and celebrities aren't going to solve the energy crisis or global warming by themselves?

There is only one company making "home refueling appliances" -- the PHILL by Fuelmaker. It costs $4,000 plus installation with a "life" of 6,000 hours, pumping around 3,000 "gallons" or gge (gallon of gas equivalent) before it shuts off. Even if you get a rebate on THAT, it brings the price of home-pumped gas up to or above the cost of commercially-pumped gas, so right now, it only makes sense to get one if you REALLY want the convenience, or can't find CNG available locally to you.

[laurieaw]

can you clear up for me the meaning of your post, especially since you were clear about being anti-hypermiling?

[hughem]

The meaning was my interest in the group. Although I don't strive to get the last MPG out of my car, I'm still interested in saving fuel/money/evironment... My understanding is that a hyper-miler is someone who modifies their car, drafts, or goes to "extremes" in some other way to save fuel.

If more people could see the feasibility of sensible vehicles and dump their gasohog SUVs, we'd be well on the way. A lot of people stop and ask me about my car. For some reason CNG vehicles are a big mystery despite having been around for 20 years or more. Whenever the media runs a story on a "green" vehicle, it's either a Prius, or some extreme vehicle that costs more than your house! (of course, they don't tell you that part!) I'm always surprised by how many people don't know about any sensible alternative to gasoline.

[xcel]

Hi Hughem:

___Welcome to CleanMPG.

Originally Posted by hughem

My understanding is that a hyper-miler is someone who modifies their car, drafts, or goes to "extremes" in some other way to save fuel.

___Your understanding is so far off the map you aren’t even on the same Continent. Have you read anything we have posted in the article or review sections let alone the forums here at all???

Originally Posted by hughem

For some reason CNG vehicles are a big mystery despite having been around for 20 years or more. Whenever the media runs a story on a "green" vehicle, it's either a Prius, or some extreme vehicle that costs more than your house! (of course, they don't tell you that part!) I'm always surprised by how many people don't know about any sensible alternative to gasoline.

___Again what is the big mystery about the NGV? I would like to have a NG based vehicle as well but not for the price Honda is demanding for it let alone with the limited refueling stations around the country. The NGV costs far more than a Prius and at $23K (for the Prius), it is not a bad vehicle by any stretch.

___Now just because you drive a NG fueled Civic doesn’t mean you should be driving at 10 over the limits with an ill-prepped Civic either. Slow down, follow the practices we employ and you may just start to enjoy your vehicles for its driving habits and not simply because of what it is fueled from.

___The following should get you started: CleanMPG Previews the 2004 Honda Civic Compressed Natural Gas powered GX.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

[donee]

Hi Hughem,

This:

" no carbon in the fuel "

is incorrect. Methane is the primary constiuent of natural gas and it has the chemical formula CH4 (one carbon, 4 hydrogens).

But, yes, the carbon fraction in methane is the lowest of hydrocarbon fuels.

T.Boone Pickens' plan is to replace all electrical generation using Natural Gas with wind mills, which would then free up natural gas for cars.

Electric cars seem to be better to me, however. Use the natural gas to displace the coal fired electicy. And use the windmills and solar for transportation. Not going to happen tomorrow, but in 10 years, its a very doable Dysonesqe thing.

Your vehicle is a traditional car, with a gaseous fuel. So, the car/drivetrain system are not any more efficient than that in a gasoline car. The furnace in my home is 80 % efficient user of natural gas. Which is 5 to 6 times that of your car driven in a metropolitan area. Using natural gas for transportation results in a significant decrease in the energy efficiency of natural gas consumption. This would quickly run down natural gas stocks. Electricity generation with natural gas is about 3 times that of a your car. So, an electric car on natural gas generated electricity would be about twice as efficient as your car.

Without significant (prius-like) improvements in the car system, natural gas does not improve the situation. A Prius NGV would be close to an electric car run on fossil fuel electicity. Electric cars still are better, because they can run on electricity from any source. Unlike the Prius NGV, which only runs on fossil fuel mechanical and electrical energy.

I guess the real conclusion, is that whatever prime-mover technology, hypermiling and basic vehicle efficiency are neccassary to get real reduction in energy consumption. Which is what will be needed to get off imported fossil fuels.