User Name Password    
CleanMPG, Learn to raise fuel economy and lower emissions in whatever you drive.  
MENU
• What is hypermiling? •
CleanMPG to AAA:
• Hypermiling Rebuttal •
 
• Home
• CleanMPG Staff
• Articles
• Fuel Economy Forums
      • Register
Go Hypermiling!

   Car Reviews:

2013 Elantra GT

2013 Elantra Coupe

2013 Lexus ES 300h

2013 Mazda CX-5


2013 Lexus GS 450h

2012 Prius c

2013 Malibu Eco

2012 Hyundai Accent
   Bike and Gear Reviews:

HTC Thunderbolt

2010 R 1200 GS (A)

Kawasaki KLX250SF

Zero S


Aerostich Darien

Shoei Hornet DS

Honda CRF230L

Yamaha XT250


• More Reviews
• Gallery
• Mileage Logs
 
• CleanMPG Store
 
• Calendar
• Glossary
• Garage
• Files
 
• Research
• Related Sites
 
• Archives
• Arcade
 
• Monthly Fuel Efficient •
Vehicle Sales Figures


ScanGauge with X-Gauge: $159.95

Pre-programming, a CleanMPG laser cut decal, and shipping included!



Even better value for members only is available in the latest SG-II w/ X-Gauge Group Buy purchase thread.



While we strive to provide only the highest quality information through our members' offerings, if you find the information provided valuable, please consider a donation so that we can offer an even better experience for the membership and guests well into the future.

Thank you

-Wayne Gerdes
Owner/Admin
CleanMPG



Home Fuel Economy Forums Gallery Mileage Logs

Register FAQ Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   CleanMPG Forums » Information » Environmental


Environmental Environmental impacts and renewable power generation for home and industry discussed here.

Welcome to the CleanMPG forums.

Some posts may describe situations which may in some cases be unsafe or illegal in some jurisdictions. Please use common sense and consult your local laws to make sure you do not hurt yourself or others or break any laws.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view discussions, articles and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact support.

Hypermiling the furnace

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 09:50 AM
EdwinTheMagnificent EdwinTheMagnificent is offline
Legend In His Mind
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Vehicles: 2008 Honda Civic LX auto
Location: near Chicago IL
Posts: 3,838
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

Quote:
pump something into the walls?
I'm looking into that.
__________________
Edwin
Reply With Quote
  #42   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 10:03 AM
Airbalancer Airbalancer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 143
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

if your crawl space is insulted it is not a bad thing to have leaks in the duct

Systems that are engineer will have an outlet discharging air into the crawl space
Reply With Quote
  #43   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 10:14 AM
EdwinTheMagnificent EdwinTheMagnificent is offline
Legend In His Mind
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Vehicles: 2008 Honda Civic LX auto
Location: near Chicago IL
Posts: 3,838
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

Quote:
Systems that are engineer will have an outlet discharging air into the crawl space
As someone who is not a HVAC expert , I don't understand. Why would you want to heat an area that people don't occupy ?
__________________
Edwin
Reply With Quote
  #44   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 10:20 AM
Mendel Leisk's Avatar
Mendel Leisk Mendel Leisk is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Vehicles: 2010 Toyota Prius Touring (2006 HCHII still in the family)
Location: Coquitlam, BC (Greater Vancouver Area)
Posts: 1,856
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbalancer View Post
if your crawl space is insulted it is not a bad thing to have leaks in the duct

Systems that are engineer will have an outlet discharging air into the crawl space
We've got a couple of ducts venting into the crawl space, basically elbows coming off the rectangular trunk runs, with dampers. They're both shut as tight as possible right now, but the crawlspace is still pretty warm, getting it's heat both from leakage and just radiation, the ducts aren't insulated.

After the sealing is done I may have to crack them open, though; I'll see how it goes.

My rational is that it's better to have both the return and heated air circuits as tight as practically possible, and the insulated crawl space sealed from the living space.
Reply With Quote
  #45   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 10:27 AM
Mendel Leisk's Avatar
Mendel Leisk Mendel Leisk is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Vehicles: 2010 Toyota Prius Touring (2006 HCHII still in the family)
Location: Coquitlam, BC (Greater Vancouver Area)
Posts: 1,856
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinTheMagnificent View Post
As someone who is not a HVAC expert , I don't understand. Why would you want to heat an area that people don't occupy ?
You do that when the insulation is out at the perimeter wall of the crawl space, not below the main floor. There's several advantages: there's likely less (and less complicated) insulation, the main floor floor will likely be warmer and more comfortable, you don't need to insulate ducts and pipes in the crawl space, there's less chance of exterior hose bibs freezing up, and so on.

The crawl space doesn't have to be heated as much as the living space (though ours is, up to now ), but you do want some heat.

Just kinda wondering now if a return air intake in the crawl space would make sense, especially with improved sealing between living zone and crawl space?
Reply With Quote
  #46   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 10:42 AM
EdwinTheMagnificent EdwinTheMagnificent is offline
Legend In His Mind
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Vehicles: 2008 Honda Civic LX auto
Location: near Chicago IL
Posts: 3,838
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

Thank you. I learned something.
__________________
Edwin
Reply With Quote
  #47   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-08-2012, 01:18 PM
44 mpg by 2010 44 mpg by 2010 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 29
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

1) Wall mounted electrical outlets are often major leaks. Gaskets can be purchased and installed behind the cover plates. Then install "child proofing" seals in the receptacles to prevent leaks where a plug would be inserted.

2) There are flexible adheasive backed plastic gasket tape/seals (weather stripping) that can be used arround doors and the bottom of windows that is easily installed.

3) Floor to ceiling wall to wall drapes with thermal liners on the north or windward walls can help further insulate those surfaces.

4) Insulate above ceilings to a minimum of 10 inches. 20 inches? Do NOT use vapor barriered insulation above existing insulation.

5) If there is a fireplace ... make sure the damper is closed when not in use. Typically fireplaces draw COLD air into and through the house to the fireplace for combustion and exhaust ... UNLESS ... venting is provided directly to the firebox from outside, not common practice in the past.

6) Caution: taking inside temperature too low ... may result in FROZEN water pipes in walls and/or under the floor. Overhead plumbing is also a very serious risk depending on installation/insulation. Outside faucets are also a problem as interior temperature is reduced. Of course the magnitude of these risks are dependent on how far below freezing outside temperatures are. My guess is taking the indoor temperature below 60°F when outside is in the 10~20°F is probably the lowest I would go. IF temps are below 0°F, I would set for a minimum of 65°F maybe 70°F. Considerable widespread plumbing damage occurred in Austin TX when temps dropped into the teens.

Hope this is helpful ...
Reply With Quote
  #48   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 01-10-2012, 01:16 AM
Mendel Leisk's Avatar
Mendel Leisk Mendel Leisk is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Vehicles: 2010 Toyota Prius Touring (2006 HCHII still in the family)
Location: Coquitlam, BC (Greater Vancouver Area)
Posts: 1,856
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

I still haven't sealed a number of seams, but one thing they have in common: they're all "shop" seams, not on-site seams. They look much tighter and uniformly so; I'm not sure how much sealing them would improve things. Now...., to maybe find out where the remaining weak spots might be:

My wife picked up a Fog Machine for Haloween, a few years back. I'm thinking to start with the heating circuit:

1. Shut off the furnace.

2. Wrap the furnace filter in poly film, to more-or-less isolate the heating and return circuits.

3. Remove the registers, wrap the registers in poly, from the bottom up, then push them back into the boots.

4. Open up the damper on one (of 2) of the crawl space heated air outlets, hook up the blower side my wet/dry to it and seal the union, start the wet/dry, then shoot the smoke machine into the wet/dry suction a little, and see where it comes out.

There's a couple of crawl space vents, at opposite ends of the basement, so I could repeat this at the other end.

Then, repeat with the return air circuit, hooking up at one of the return air inlets.

Last edited by Mendel Leisk : 01-12-2012 at 03:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-03-2012, 12:58 PM
Mendel Leisk's Avatar
Mendel Leisk Mendel Leisk is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Vehicles: 2010 Toyota Prius Touring (2006 HCHII still in the family)
Location: Coquitlam, BC (Greater Vancouver Area)
Posts: 1,856
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

An update:

I finished off my tub of mastic, sealing a lot of secondary "shop" seams in the ductwork, then sealed any remaining longitudinal seams with aluminum tape.

Then I took the plunge: purchased a roll of ductwork fiberglass insulation, 1" fiberglass with FSK (Foil-Scrim-Kraft) backing, and rolls of FSK tape.

I decided to clean the crawl space first, before getting into the insulation. There was a heavy plastic vapour barrier on grade, in pretty good shape, a few tears, but there was a lot of sawdust, dirt, and 30 plus years of grime and cobwebs.

Then, I took a couple of utility tables down there, and got to work on the insulation. There's some info online, guidelines on how long to cut pieces, depending on the duct diameter. Also guidance on cutting 2" wide flaps.

The insulation rolls are 4' by 100' and comes with one such 2" flap, running the whole length on one side. Then when you cut a piece you're supposed to create a second such flap at the cut edge, so that the FSK backing is always overlapping seams. There's guidelines for how long to cut a pice for wrapping. In a nutshell:

Round ducts: circumference plus 7"
Square ducts: perimeter plus 6"
Rectangular ducts: perimiter plus 5" (near square? Split the difference?? )

(All of the above include 2" for flap. For the round ducts for example, you need 5" overlength plus 2" flap allowance. These values stretch/compress the insulation slightly, theoretically to around 3/4" thickness.)

I used 3" wide FSK tape. It comes with a backing paper that you peal off as you apply it. It's good practice to go over after with a spatula edge to press it firmly in contact.

I wore old clothes, gloves and used a good quality dust mask, without exception. The gloves have to come off though, when applying tape, and finessing the insulation into tight quarters.

I got into a routine: get the insulation roughly positioned, then "tack" it with thin strips of tape at intervals along the seams. Finally apply tape for full length of all seams. Transition pieces were tricky, required making some templates.

Anyway, here's a few pics, before insulation with mastic and some tape applied, and after.

Here's the main plenum, sealed:



A round duct, coming directly off the plenum, sealed:



A couple of locations where electrical wiring ran in/out of the return air circuit, now sealed:



(This one I filled the big void with styrofoam, then caulked around. The caulk is clear, not all that visible)



A typical rectangular trunk line seam, sealed:



One of two registers for warming the crawl space, as needed, just sealed. The lever opens/closes the register via an internal metal damper disc.



A round duct, sealed:



(Note, in cases like this, with an elbow, I disassemble the duct, so that I could the mastic right into the joint. Where not possible, I used fiberglass mesh to reinforce the seal.)

The roll of insulation, about half used up:



(I ended up buying a second roll as well, and got about half way through that one)

The plenum, after insulating:



Note the tuck tape patches on the ground vapor barrier. I took the time to clean the whole crawl space, and patched the tears in the vapor barrier, both to tighten it up and to prevent dirt sifting through again.

Insulated rectangular trunk line, with a vertical deflection, and a round duct coming off:



A couple of round ducts coming off a trunk line, insulated:



Close up of round duct meeting boot at underside of register:



A bit of sprayed-foam is noticeable in this pic. I sealed all the sub-floor boot junctions with foam-in insulation (also caulked the boots against the sub-floor, from above). First I used Dow Great Stuff, then switched to a similar DAP product, one that was latex basedj. The latter was much friendlier to use, easier to clean up. The can can be used multiple times without clogging. Also, I was abple to put a flexible extension tube on it, to improve reach.

Bottom line:

Prior to starting the insulation, if I set a temperature probe in a particular outlet, with the thermostat raised several degrees centigrade, so that the furnace would do a sustained, fully warmed up run, the temperature got up to around 38~39 Centigrade. After the insulation, the temperature levels out at 47~48.

This page has a number of relevant publications:

http://www.naima.org/insulation-reso...duct-work.html

(in particular, the second one down: "A Guide to Insulated HVAC Systems (AH121)"
__________________

Last edited by Mendel Leisk : 03-03-2012 at 05:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50   Submit to Clesto Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Spurl
Old 03-03-2012, 02:53 PM
08EscapeHybrid 08EscapeHybrid is online now
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Vehicles: 08 Escape Hybrid 4x4 "The Toaster"
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,648
Re: Hypermiling the furnace

Because your walls are insulated, and the floor above is not, your crawlspace is considered controlled space, and does not require insulation on the ducts. It certainly doesn't hurt to insulate it, but your gains will be relatively small unless you insulate the floors as well.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
hypermiling bumper stickers ellenbetty Start Your Journey Here 10 04-16-2012 08:29 PM
Even USA Today and Digg are slamming hypermiling Kevin108 General 14 01-07-2009 11:28 PM
'Hypermiling' techniques offer gas gains for gas pains lamebums In the News 0 08-17-2008 02:31 AM
Driving Psychology and Hypermiling Chuck General 7 06-19-2008 10:39 PM
Maximize Your Car's Efficiency With 'Hypermiling' atlaw4u In the News 0 05-19-2008 05:49 PM



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2006 - 2013, Clean MPG LLC. All Rights Reserved.