Still Waiting for Hybrids

[atlaw4u]

Higher Gas Prices Help the Equation; Will the Future Be With Plug-ins?

Joseph B. White - WSJ - June 16, 2008

A colleague came to me recently with a question that is on the minds of a lot of American consumers these days: Should I buy a hybrid car?

With gasoline at record prices, demand for some (though not all) gas-electric hybrid vehicles is booming. The average Toyota Prius is getting sold just 13 days after hitting the showroom floor, according to Power Information Network data sampled from dealerships. A year ago, it took 24 days to sell a Prius. Prius sales dropped 38% in May compared to a year ago, but that was because Toyota dealers were running out of cars to sell. Dealers had just 3,832 unsold at the end of a month during which they sold more than 15,000 cars. (Those same Toyota dealers had more than 19,000 Sequoia sport utility vehicles gathering dust at the end of May, according to Autodata Corp., after selling just 3,575 of the U.S.-made big rigs.)

Honda Civic hybrids are selling in an average of 30 days, compared to 67 days a year ago. Average prices for both cars are higher – more than $1,000 higher in the case of the Prius. (Not moving so well is the Nissan Altima hybrid, which is sitting on the showroom floor an average of 60 days).

The stampede toward hybrid technology reflects the much broader rush toward smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles that has roiled the auto market as gasoline prices started topping $4 a gallon. Hybrid fever seems to be everywhere, as car makers compete to demonstrate their pro-hybrid bona fides. (Toyota last week said it will show off early next year two new hybrids. General Motors Corp. is providing regular progress reports on the status of its Volt plug-in hybrid, due in 2010).

The problem is that even at $4 a gallon, most current hybrid vehicles won't save their owners enough at the pump to pay back quickly the price premium over similar, conventional vehicles. The numbers have gotten better, of course, as gasoline prices have risen. But buying a hybrid isn't financial a no-brainer. It depends on your starting point – what vehicle you drive today – what you are willing to consider as an alternative to a hybrid, and how much you value the non-monetary benefits of hybrid ownership.

For example… [Read More]

[applemac*fit]

Excellent article.

I hope that Toyota does introduce the new Prius with an option to plug it in.

[Earthling]

For example, by my rough calculation, if my colleague buys the Honda Civic Hybrid he's considering, he'll likely save $640 a year out of pocket compared to a regular Civic sedan, if his hybrid averages the EPA combined estimate of 42 miles per gallon over 15,000 annual miles and gas stays around $4 a gallon.

Always looking for a reason to discount the value of hybrids, aren't they?

The hypermilers around here know we can usually top the EPA numbers, sometimes by a wide margin. My Prius is rated at 45 mpg highway, but I routinely get 55 mpg combined in warm weather, which is a very sizeable difference, and would make a skeptic's calculations invalid. There is also the issue of estimating gasoline prices over the lifetime of a vehicle, or over the ownership period. Taking the current price of gasoline, and using it for calculations would have been wildly wrong if I had used that when I took delivery of my Prius in early November of 2006, for example.

Harry

[msantos]

Originally Posted by Earthling

....
Always looking for a reason to discount the value of hybrids, aren't they?
...

Indeed. Fear mongering, ignorance and mediocrity are as relentless as they are baffling. I guess not much is new in this 9 year old story.

Cheers;

MSantos

[.iceman]

Originally Posted by Earthling

The hypermilers around here know we can usually top the EPA numbers, sometimes by a wide margin.
Harry

But that goes for the non-hybrid as well!

[run500mph]

So what do you think would be better, buying a prius or buying a used fuel efficient car for lets say 7000.00 and hypermiling it to around 50mpg. I get 45-55 mpg by hypermiling my car right now. Or, is it better to still get the prius since you can hypermile it also.

I wonder because the price difference is huge between the two vehicles and I wonder how long it would take to make up the price hit, even as the economical gas car is being hypermiled all those years as well?

Anyone know this math?

[mparrish]

Originally Posted by run500mph

So what do you think would be better, buying a prius or buying a used fuel efficient car for lets say 7000.00 and hypermiling it to around 50mpg. I get 45-55 mpg by hypermiling my car right now. Or, is it better to still get the prius since you can hypermile it also.

I wonder because the price difference is huge between the two vehicles and I wonder how long it would take to make up the price hit, even as the economical gas car is being hypermiled all those years as well?

Anyone know this math?

At the end of the day, I think it's a fairly simple question to answer.

If you think the cost of this:

http://www.tooninanimation.net/maste...tion_large.jpg

will continue to go up, and you think the cost of this:

http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

will continue to go down, get the Prius. Otherwise, get the efficient non-hybrid.

[Jimmy]

Plug-in hybrids are certainly a step in the right direction, especially if the vehicle is a FULL hybrid like the Toyota Prius. CalCars (a California group) has already shown that converting a Prius to a plug-in can more than double the gas mileage.

However, considering the rapidly developing advancement in battery technology, I believe the future will be with highway capable, long range all-electric vehicles. These vehicles, at affordable prices (unlike the Tesla), may even begin appearing as early as 2009. Look for them!

[Smile-n-Nod]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

converting a Prius to a plug-in can more than double the gas mileage.

I never hear the cost of electricity factored into the equation. How much cheaper is the price of electricity per mile compared to the price of gasoline per mile? Also, how does the pollution created by producing that electricity compared with the pollution created by the hybrid vehicle burning gasoline?

[Jimmy]

Actually there is no comparison at all, as numerous articles and documents have shown (do a Google search and you will get plenty of hits).

But to just mention the bottom line, the price of electricity is way, way less than the price of gasoline - and the pollution created by internal combustion engines overwhelms the small amount of pollution attributed to battery production. There is no pollution from a vehicle while running in electric-only mode. The only direct pollution is the use of the electric company's facility to charge the EV batteries, and this amount of pollution, as compared to the tons and tons of carbon dioxide spewing from millions of ICE vehicles, is minuscile. The use of solar power to charge the batteries will reduce the pollution to almost nothing.

I own a 2007 Zenn EV. During the first month of ownership I drove this vehicle 360 miles. The cost for charging the battery pack over those 30 days was $3.00, as shown by a Kill-O-Watt meter installed at the household 110 volt outlet where I plug in the vehicle extension cord.