Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

I guess my issue with fueling plug-ins versus petro ...

There appears to be NO standardized and widely available/used input metering system for kW/hrs transferred through the plug for plug-ins.

Just that simple ...

I have been trying to get a handle (measured data) on ENERGY IN for plug-ins since 2009.

Am I wrong?

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

You know, there is an argument for carbon equivalence and that obviously varies. But if I have to charge my EV with electricity generated from coal and the analysis says that a fit EV runs me the carbon equivalence of a HCHII, I may not be willing to deal with range issues or spend $30k on a new car.

There are strong arguments against EVs from an environmental point of view. EVs in general seem to give you other things other than environmental benefits (ie Leaf is faster than Prius). Sure electricity is more versatile but coal is horrible.

The military argument against oil is probably 5 years away from being irrelevant. NA is very close to being self sufficient for oil. Sure the oil will always cross borders and the Middle East will have a lot of oil for some time. But throw in 5 years of high CAFE numbers and growing (even if just a little) production in the US and the tar sands, and the trend line is in our favor.

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

The USA is using less coal all the time -- we are now down to about 38% of our electricity from coal. Of course fracking for gas and oil means that those now take a lot more energy and more water to get them out of the ground, and the amount of leaked gas out of the ground, etc. is not accounted for, either.

Even with 100% coal, the carbon equivalent is about 80MPG on gasoline.

Electric motors are up to 94% efficient.
Gasoline engines are up to 38% efficient and diesels are up ~42%, if I am not mistaken.

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

"Up to" is the critical phrase there. Those numbers are for the best engines, running steadily at their most efficient combination of speed and load. For average engines under all the varied conditions of normal driving, with normal drivers, a lot less.

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

Consider http://greet.es.anl.gov/results

5 data packed pages

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

if that worries you then get solar panels installed at your home.. dont ask me how you plan to charge at night :)

The other alternative is E85.. yes half the board just gasped!.. there are cars that run well on E85.

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

This is a flawed argument. The oil market is a world market and oil is fungable and all of the supply infrastructure is held by private commercial entities who sell to the highest bidder. That means even if the US is producing the same amount as it is consuming, if there is a war or embargo or some sort of disruption of the supply somewhere else, that oil will flow out of the US to the highest bidder. Oil demand is extremely inelastic short term so we will still see huge price spikes and we will still be in the business of being the "world police" in oil producing areas until we break or oil addiction.

The REAL national security argument for increase oil production in the US is balance of trade. When a sovereign nation has a negative balance of trade (imports exceed exports) over the long haul, that equation balances by foreigners and foreign nations buying up more and more of the nations assets and debt. Foreign entities currently own 28% of US debt. At what level of indebtedness to foreign entities does a country start lose it autonomy and freedom to act as a sovereign nation? Has it already happened? What would happen to the the US borrowing costs if China or the Saudis or others decided to dump ALL of their Treasuries on the world market tomorrow?

My appologies for sending this thread off on a tangent . . :eek:

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

Well - I understand you calling it a flawed argument but there is some merit.

In a war, we have enough to not be shocked. So it becomes less of a national security issue. In a real war, the oil is not in the hands of the private entities. In a real war, ships don't go unfettered from the US to China or India. So in a real (or serious or WWIII), the origin of oil makes a big difference.

And then you made the 2nd part of the argument. The balance of trade and we are fixing that gradually on the energy side. Obviously billions flowing to unstable/unfriendly regimes is not a good thing. We can't fix that Iran has oil and we can't fix that oil has value. We can use less but every drop we cut gets used us by someone else (admittedly at a slightly lower price).

So yes, oil use has a military consequence. But this is diminishing over time - not to zero but diminished. There is no way we can wave our hands and make world oil have no value. So because of that, Iran having oil is a problem. But it is a problem even if the US uses none of it. I just would argue that you can't really attribute $500 billion a year going forward to protect oil supplies. Some of that is going to be spent anyway because oil will always have world value. Even if the US used no oil at all, some of that would be still be spent.

I've seen an EV analysis that put the coal comparison at about 35 mpg. (carbon)

On the other hand, you can't going around saying gasoline is 38% efficient. It is more like
15% in average use. But you can say that coal is 40%.

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

Can anyone link to a graph of US oil production vs consumption, because the idea that we are on a path to oil independence does not jive with anything I've seen. Sure, we are exporting a bit of our refined (imported) oil, but I think our consumption still swamps our production...

Re: The US EPA Makes 40.6 equal 118 MPG or 34.4% equal. 100%
 

A few years back I was interested in steam powered automobiles.

Guess what ... they get about 10 mpg ... of water.