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-   -   Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43629)

MaxxMPG 04-26-2012 09:56 PM

Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
In The Real World of Daily Commuting, How Does Spark Compare to America's Nixon-Era Family Car?

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/SparkVsBarge310.jpg
Chris Bernius - CleanMPG - Apr 26.2012

The Auto Show season has ended, and so the news leaks, spy photos and press releases tend to get a little quiet this time of year. It's not a good time to be an auto writer because there isn't always much to share that's really new, other than periodic awards or new ratings releases. But Chevrolet decided to add a fun little poster to their news feed to start the drum roll for their new-for-2013 fun little Spark that is due to arrive at dealers some time this summer.

The people at Chevrolet decided to create a single page infomercial titled "The Small and Big of It". And it's a comparison of a 2013 Chevrolet Spark against an "average" 1973 full size domestic car. The idea is to illustrate four decades of automotive design progress. They say the exterior is 50% smaller, the front leg/head room and rear head room virtually matches, and both cars roll on standard 15 inch wheels.

Their punchline - "Let's compare the big rides from four decades ago with today's subcompacts to see what's changed, and what hasn't."

Here is the graphic, which inexplicably shows a 1979 Chrysler New Yorker instead of a 1973 Impala, which was actually three inches longer than the Mopar R-Body in the cartoon. Oh well, we'll write it off to artistic interpretation.

The Small And Big Of It - The Spark Vs The Barge of 1973


When I saw the comparison, the curiosity started. How does the Spark really compare to the Chevrolet cars of 1973? Not only in exterior and interior inches and pounds, but also in fuel economy and horsepower?

There was only one way to find out.

A little snooping on a website that has a database of automotive literature turned up images of the original Chevrolet sales brochures that contained most of the information I needed. While it took some time to gather the information and plug it into a spreadsheet, the result contained some very revealing conclusions. Along with the 1973 Impala, I included the 1973 Nova - a "compact" at the time, and a 1973 Vega hatchback - the smallest Chevrolet on sale at the time. Here is the resulting spreadsheet:

2013 Spark vs 1973 Impala, 1973 Nova, 1973 Vega


In the spreadsheet, the first column is titled SPARK and has the numbers for the 2013 Spark. From left to right, the Impala (our "average full size car") is listed, followed by the Nova, and then the Vega.

The column just next to SPARK is titled "PerPass" and shows shoulder and hip room - front and rear - divided by two. Since it is a four passenger car, dividing hip and shoulder measurements by two shows the room available per passenger. In the "PerPass" column for the Impala and Nova, the hip/shoulder numbers are divided by three since these were marketed as six passenger cars. The Vega was a four seater and so the hip/shoulder numbers are halved to show space per passenger.

The columns titled "Spark->####", with each car name, is a simple calculation to show comparison of the Spark to the car named in the column title. A number in parenthesis means the number is negative, without parenthesis means the number is positive.

Curb weights are never listed in sales brochures, and so the numbers listed are an average of several different sites that posted curb weights for the three vintage cars. If the numbers seem higher than expected, I learned by researching that 1973 model cars were the first to have door beams and other structural changes to meet new crash and crush standards. The 1973 models also had the new 5mph bumpers up front, although the rear bumpers only had to meet a 2.5mph standard; with 1974 being the first year for 5mph rear bumpers. Comparing shipping weights for the different cars, the increase from 1972 to 1973 was 300 to 600 pounds. Why mention this? Because even with about a quarter ton of extra metal welded in, these 1973 cars wouldn't stand a chance of passing today's crash standards.

For fuel economy, the best comparison available would be to use the first year the numbers were available to the public - 1975 - and list them for the base powertrain for each 1973 Chevrolet, with the understanding that the 1973 model could have been slightly lower, thanks to more emissions plumbing in those pre-catalyst times, and the '73 Nova/Vega having Powerglide 2AT vs the '75 Nova/Vega having a 3AT. Since those 1975 numbers were the actual CAFE city/highway figures - meaning they were the actual dynamometer results rounded to the nearest whole number - we would need to adjust them to compare today's cars.

To make things foggier, Chevrolet has been tight-lipped about the fuel economy figures for the 2013 Spark, not even providing a ballpark guess of what we might see when the car arrives in a couple of months. So if they won't speak for themselves, I will speak for them. Being a nice guy, I will guess that the Spark will end up at 28/39, just as a WAG and close enough for some Fun With Numbers in the sheet above. Another reason I am guessing 28/39 - It is the EPA estimate for the 2012 Honda Civic 1.8L 5AT, and so we can use the EPA/DOE spreadsheet to swipe the Civic's raw city/highway numbers and round them to integers so we can have our Disco-Era EPA ratings for a closer comparison.

So how does the new Spark compare to the Chevrolet of 1973 - Large, Medium, and Small?
  • The Spark is almost 6-1/2 feet shorter than the '73 Impala, about four feet shorter than a '73 Nova, and almost three feet shorter than a '73 Vega.
  • In curb weight, the Impala weighs almost a ton more, the Nova weighs about half a ton more, the Vega weighs almost a quarter ton more.
  • In horsepower, the Spark has 13 more than Vega, 15 less than Nova, and 60 less than Impala.
  • In pounds-per-horsepower, the Spark wins with 27.5 vs 29.3 for Impala, 33 for Nova, 39 for Vega. Let's have a moment of silence to listen to the auto media leadfoots wail about the anemic Spark when it's tiny engine is hauling less mass per horsepower than the ubiquitous Impala with 350 2bbl V8.
  • The Spark's automatic is a four speed, while the '73 Impala had a three speed, and the base engines in Nova and Vega were offered only with the two speed Powerglide. Attn: Auto mags - Please spare me the hysteria of the 85hp Spark's 0-60 times, when our small car of four decades ago had a 72hp engine and a two speed automatic with a low gear ratio close to the Spark's second gear.
  • Front legroom is within an inch on all cars, and 40-42 inches is the typical standard for almost any car built in the last half century.
  • Front and rear headroom are all about the same (within an inch), except for the Vega's front seat, which gives up about two inches.
  • Rear leg room, quietly omitted from GM's comparison, is nothing to be ashamed of. While the '73 Impala does offer an extra 3.6 inches, the '73 Nova sedan is about the same, and the '73 Vega is down almost half a foot in rear leg room.
  • Comparing hip and shoulder room on a "per passenger" basis (see above), the Spark beats all the '73s in almost every measurement of front/rear hip/shoulder.
  • In a mini-car, the cargo area is definitely an area where they trimmed the size. The Spark's 11.4 cubic feet is dwarfed by the '73 Impala's 20.5 (9 more), but not far off the Nova's 13.8 (2-1/2 more than Spark), but it beats the Vega hatchback's 9.3.
  • Comparing cargo area with rear seats folded, the Spark is rated at 31.2 cubic feet, the '73 Nova hatchback advertised 27.3 (4 less than Spark) and the '73 Vega hatchback promised 18.9 (12 less than Spark). And yes, with rear seat folded, the Spark has 50% more cargo space than the trunk of the '73 Impala.
  • With head and leg room so close, and per-passenger hip and shoulder room also close (except for the tight quarters in the Nova), the Spark offers passenger space on par with the Chevrolet cars we bought just as the OPEC embargo hit.
  • For that equivalent passenger space, the raw EPA numbers suggest that the Spark will travel three times as far as the Impala for each gallon of gas consumed. And the Nova wasn't much better. Even the Vega would only go half as far on a gallon compared to the Spark.

With a height of over five feet, the Spark should offer reasonably easy entry/exit, even considering the fitting of four necessarily stubby doors within its not-quite-eight-foot wheelbase. And once inside, all the basic dimensions are close to that of the interior of 2+ ton Impala that served as family-size car for several generations of buyers. While the Impala offered generous room for six, the Spark offers the same accommodations for four, and offers an average of 2.5 airbags per passenger, too.

Now, if you read a review of the Spark and the self-medicated editor bemoans the pedestrian powertrain, remember that with fewer pounds per horsepower, it's quicker than America's favorite full-size family car of 1973. And anyone who complains about interior space can be forced to sit in the rear seat of a '73 Nova or Vega before they click "Submit" on their article. While it's true that the Spark won't be called into service as a limousine, it does have more interior space that what we used to call "small cars" all those years ago. How did we ever survive?

Can this comparison be expanded to other "A" or "B" segment cars on the road today? Absolutely. But for today, the cheerfully flourescent advert by Chevrolet earns the Spark the spotlight for comparing the new urban commuter to the dinosaurs of four decades ago.

RedylC94 04-26-2012 11:22 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Verrry interesting! Collecting all that data must've required a lot of digging.

Cars of around 1973-76 were not only slower and thristier than those of today, but also much slower and thirstier than equivalent models of the 60s, due to the tightening emissions and crash requirements you mention.

Some car sales brochures have listed curb weights. Some even used to show gear ratios, cutaway views of engines, etc.

I considered buying a Vega in late '72. I'm glad I didn't. Instead, I got a Subaru, which compared to a Vega :

Was 20" shorter and much lighter, although roughly the same in interior space;
Had less power, but more power per pound;
Had a much more durable engine, with lower fuel consumption, in spite of spinning about 3700 revs/mile;
Had roughly equally wretched vulnerability to rust;
Had almost equally shoddy rear seat construction, but at least a much less punishing seating position;
Had much superior traction in snow, which was a good trade-off for its lower cornering capability on dry roads.

aca2983 04-27-2012 01:34 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Interesting graphic and campaign, however I think not including safety is a key omission. That is going to be the one question on a lot of people's minds, and most people today still assume that bigger=safer. I personally don't hold that view, and while you can't change the laws of physics, design plays a big part too.

PaleMelanesian 04-27-2012 09:15 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
I'd put money on the Spark being safer as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

That 2009 Malibu rates 4 stars (****) on the new, tougher 2011+ crash tests: http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...?vehicleId=226
The Spark isn't rated yet, but the Sonic is a 5 star (*****). http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...vehicleId=6506

malherbe 04-27-2012 09:42 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
I would like to see the prformances stats too, 0-60 30-60 and braking distance and lateral g's. I would put money on the spark.

herm 04-27-2012 10:23 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
It was much easier working on those 70s land barges, try adjusting the dwell and points on a Spark!

I guarantee you will be frustrated.

PaleMelanesian 04-27-2012 10:25 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
:p Nice one! What dwell and what points? Adjust?

Right Lane Cruiser 04-27-2012 11:15 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
It's not good to dwell on those points too much -- look to the future!


;)

MaxxMPG 04-27-2012 11:35 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Dwell and points went away by 1975, with transistorized ignition a necessary addition to keep combustion clean enough to allow the newly-added catalyst to survive. But until computer control at the start of the '80s, you could still adjust fuel mixture and idle speed.

And I don't miss the choke - whether electric, bi-metal spring, or knob on the dash. And I don't miss mechanical fuel pumps.

And for those in the snow belt, compare the Spark with front drive and standard ABS, traction control and stability control to a '73 Impala with rear drive, H78-15 highway tires, vague steering, and stomp-n-slide disc/drum brakes.

PaleMelanesian 04-27-2012 11:42 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Not to mention more mass for continued sliding when you stomp.

herm 04-27-2012 12:25 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
everyone should own one of these, I think mine will go to Craigslist :)


08EscapeHybrid 04-27-2012 12:54 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
My old Bonneville wagon was a beast in the snow. Never got stuck. Also, 70's vehicles with mild technology upgrades get pretty decent economy. My old 74 Chevy pickup used to get upper 20's on the highway. I got tired of adjusting the points so I ripped out the distributor and upgraded it to an electronic distributor from a 75 Chevy van. I also put AC Delco platinum plugs in it. Probably was my best value in a vehicle ever. I bought it, drove it for several years, then sold it for more money than I paid for it.

MaxxMPG 04-27-2012 01:07 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Yup, the old cars could beat even those unadjusted EPA numbers. And the ability to set your own mixture and idle speed, along with ignition timing before computerization, you could set the car for better economy or more power.
The old '74 Chevy pickup probably didn't weigh much more than today's heavier midsize crossovers. It was huge, but was little more than a sheet metal box over a steel frame. The 1975 EPA numbers for a Chevy pickup:
250 I6 1bbl - 14/19
350 V8 2bbl - 12/17
350 V8 4bbl - 13/18
454 V8 4bbl - 10/14

The 350 with Q-Jet did better on the EPA tests. A common belief that four barrel carburetors meant the car was a guzzler was disproved in most EPA results. The smaller throat of the primaries meant higher air velocity and better mixture, and therefore better throttle response and better fuel economy at light throttle. Those who decided to mash the pedal to open the secondaries were treated to the roar of the air intake, getting thrown back in the seat, and watching the fuel gage and speedometer moving equal distances in opposite directions.

08EscapeHybrid 04-27-2012 01:20 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Yeah, my 74 Chevy had a 350, 4bbl QuadraJet, and a TH350 3 speed automatic with lockup. My brother in law used to joke that I got great mileage, because I was only driving 1/2 a truck (had severe cancerous rust), but it had an air conditioner that was so cold, you could keep ice cream in there. I generally drove it like an old lady, but you didn't need to press the pedal hard because it readily moved at the slightest touch of the pedal.

MaxxMPG 04-27-2012 01:33 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Your '74 pickup had my '75 Vega easily beat. The old Vega had the aluminum grenade with self-changing oil feature, and a TH250 that hated to shift to direct drive (likely a gummed up governor). I'd get 13 around town and maybe 18 on the highway. A long 10 second coast down was needed to get it to 3rd gear, and then it'd want to kick down when climbing any kind of hill because the engine was good for about 50hp by today's measure. It was that car that taught me DWL because any pedal pressure on the hills would doom you to second gear and then you had the challenge of getting it back to 3rd. And I might have had you beaten on rust. The rust was concentrated around the front and rear windows, so that a right turn during a rain storm would drop about half a cup of water onto your lap. Glad the car wasn't a stick because I'd be palming the wheel to turn while holding a plastic cup in my other hand, trying to catch the stream of water as it started to pour into the car. They sure don't build 'em like they used to! I miss sitting in chemistry class, waiting for my legs to dry off.

08EscapeHybrid 04-27-2012 03:40 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
LOL, when I boght the truck, the seller jokingly said "Don't haul any sand in it". It had a few golf ball sized rust holes in the bottom of the bed. There were also rust holes in the fenders large enough that I could almost stick my arm through them. Oh, and it was the ugliest color on earth. Two tone paint, white (which was faded to light grey) and "moss green" which faded to "Baby poo green" Ugly as sin, but arguably the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned.

waltermlee 04-28-2012 04:43 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxxMPG (Post 342655)
Your '74 pickup had my '75 Vega easily beat. The old Vega had the aluminum grenade with self-changing oil feature, and a TH250 that hated to shift to direct drive (likely a gummed up governor). I'd get 13 around town and maybe 18 on the highway. A long 10 second coast down was needed to get it to 3rd gear, and then it'd want to kick down when climbing any kind of hill because the engine was good for about 50hp by today's measure. It was that car that taught me DWL because any pedal pressure on the hills would doom you to second gear and then you had the challenge of getting it back to 3rd. And I might have had you beaten on rust. The rust was concentrated around the front and rear windows, so that a right turn during a rain storm would drop about half a cup of water onto your lap. Glad the car wasn't a stick because I'd be palming the wheel to turn while holding a plastic cup in my other hand, trying to catch the stream of water as it started to pour into the car. They sure don't build 'em like they used to! I miss sitting in chemistry class, waiting for my legs to dry off.

Oh the memories! :rolleyes: I had a 1974 Chevy Vega GT hatchback (AT) when I was a poor college kid and I'd like to confirm MaxxMPG's observations. The aluminum block leaked oil ( around the head gasket and oil pan) and burned oil too. On the plus side it was pretty easy for a DIYer to change the oil, oil filter, air filter, the battery, and the spark plugs. On the downside, it was overweight and underpowered which was only made worst by its mismatched automatic transmission. On the upside, it was easy to reset the engine timing with a timing gun. On the downside again, the acceleration on a flat road AND hill climbing ability was both subpar. Despite no auto accidents, washing and waxing frequently and having paid for a dealer's rustproofing undercoating - the Vega started rusting from the inside out from the side panels and along weld points along the roof by the 6th year. The micro pits of rusting were impossible to stop with sanding or chemicals so attempts to use fiberglass patches did not work. The only good thing about the GT was that it had an RPM gauge which along with over inflated tires could help me get about 24 mpg on the superhighway (if I kept my speed under 60mph) and about 18 mpg in the city (doing rabbit timing and DWB). Because I put too much stuff in the rear - the unibody later became slightly warped and it was impossible to get perfect alignment. My only modifications were the installation of a CB radio and replacing the AM radio(with one speaker on the dash board) with stereo tape cassette player (with two speaker in the rear). It was really an embarassing car to own ... one of our local service stations/garages even refused to repair her because he felt she should have sent to the scrape yard years ago... which was sort of funny - because after that I started going to the scrape yards for parts (since there were so many Chevy Vegas there) to repair it... :p

50 mpg by 2012 04-29-2012 02:58 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
As I understand it the SparK is basically an EU Aveo:

48.7 mpg(Imp) urban ==> predicted US 40 mpg
60 mpg(Imp) combined ==> predicted US 49 mpg
68.9 mpg(Imp) extra urban ==> predicted US 55 mpg
NEDC cycle of course.

0-60 13.4 seconds
108 mph top speed

based price £10,295 ... predicted export list USD $12.6K

http://www.autocar.co.uk/SpecsPrices...-1.2-LS/63433/
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/...1.2-LS/257171/

Chevy Spark prices start at $12,995 according to
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TAIL/120409902

It will be interesting to see how EPA sticker turns out.

MaxxMPG 04-29-2012 03:18 PM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
The Aveo in the autocar link is sold (and built) in the US as the Sonic. The Spark is quite a bit smaller than the Sonic and is in fact only a few inches longer than the Fiat 500.

GM is suggesting (but not stating) that the highway EPA will be 40-something, but I'm not sure it will earn a 40 with an automatic. Being marketed as a city car and also likely to make the shopping list of the 20-30 year olds (with its low MSRP and tech toys), I can't see a large share of Sparks hitting the streets with the manual trans. Most young drivers don't know how to drive stick and apparently have little interest in doing so, and city traffic makes the three-pedal-variety tiresome after a few hundred hours of gridlock each year.

Whether the Spark succeeds or fails in the market will depend largely on actual transaction prices - meaning MSRP less wheeling&dealing less incentives or low interest financing. A nicely optioned Spark 1LT will have a sticker dangerously close to the Kia Rio LX and Hyundai Accent GS/GLS, which both have more interior space, EPA ratings of 30/40 for stick *and* automatic, and will probably have better residual value over time.

50 mpg by 2012 04-30-2012 09:11 AM

Re: Spark Vs Barge - The New Micro-Chevy is Compared to Yesterday's Land Barge
 
Max, thanks for the correction.


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