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This project has been under wraps for the last 4 months but is now ready and on it’s way to the NOPI Nationals in Atlanta.

The object was to build this and as OEM as possible, Meaning it’s not a stripped out race car. The LHT way !

We have tried to cover every angle possible so make this a real streetcar. It has AC (Factory climate control), Power steering (Factory electric), ABS, S2000 cluster (100% operating), upgraded braking and suspension and a much stiffer chassis.

We stiffened the whole car by welding extra braces, as well as building a complete sub frame, which ties the whole front together, and course the whole thing is aluminum.
The mounts are Honda OEM mounts from various Honda Vehicles so the car is very smooth with no teeth chattering. In fact you can’t feel it idle in the driver seat.

Now for numbers, with very little tuning the car is making over 200whp with a very quiet exhaust and tied with a JDM 6 speed transmission accelerates like a rocket. The car feels very tight and has great feel due the extra bracing and a custom alignment.

For the gas mileage folks, so far with very little tuning the car has averaged 48mpg with about 60% highway and the rest stop and go. This includes the 7 runs on the dyno. I’m confidant it will break 55+mpg once tuned. With the ability of the Hondata K-Pro we have had the car at 19-1 AF ratio with 40 degree of advance with no issues.

I have to say, that's actually an impressive little car...

This a a old hot-rodder's dream come true! wow!

Eh, I'm not impressed. Its been done a million times. Thats not to say that they didn't do a great job. It does look very nice and clean. I guess I've just seen my share of this kind of work. Big engine + smaller car = fast small car. Yay, hurray for some. Blah and old news IMO... The original drivetrain is much more impressive.

Wow, you have seen more than I have.
What I remember is Big Engine+small car= fast car & poor FE.
I can't remember ever seeing Big engine+Small car= fast car+48mpg.
Charlie






Eh, I'm not impressed. Its been done a million times. Thats not to say that they didn't do a great job. It does look very nice and clean. I guess I've just seen my share of this kind of work. Big engine + smaller car = fast small car. Yay, hurray for some. Blah and old news IMO... The original drivetrain is much more impressive.

I'd drive it.

We haven't heard from Jeff yet -- maybe because he's on the phone trying to buy it? ;)

Seriously, it is a nice bit of engineering but I agree with Tim -- I think the original was much more impressive.

I'll admit to some surprise over the reported FE of this Franken-Insight -- it is a bit higher than I would have expected.

Here are a few factors that lessen its glamor IMO.

1) The Insight even stock with batteries and IMA is a VERY light car. Take those out and you have a super lightweight base to work with. Kudos to Honda, not LHT.

2) The Insight is (I believe) the most aerodynamic production vehicle. Again, kudos to Honda.

3) They are using leanburn technology to get that 48 mpg. Unless they are using some good catalytic converters designed for reducing NOx, this thing is going to be a NOx monster and not a clean burning car.

4) People have dropped K20s into the CRX before. Now, the CRX is a bit inferior compared to the Insight, but its not that different.



So, IMO they dropped an engine into the Insight with a bit of customization (and I agree nicely done customization), and lean burn mode. Presto chango you have an Insight with over twice the horsepower, half the mileage, and worse emissions. I'm not trying to say its a bad car, its just not overly impressive.

What's the final weight of the car after conversion?

Daox,
You're a hard man to please.They had to good sense to start with a very light car with very little drag,and they added a small very efficient 200 hp motor,so it is low on the glamor scale.
Show me a better hot rod(all hot rods start with a OEM vehicle)!Most tuner hot rods -usually Civics-are just a noise makers with wheels too tall,sidewalls too short an overpriced exhaust to add noise, a CAI to add a bit more noise.They usually aren't a bit quicker 0-60 or 1/8 1/4 mile.Oh,I forgot,they usually get poorer FE(maybe 30 mpg hy). Now, if they are a bit smarter they skip all the above add a 75 shot of NO2 -get maybe 50 more hp,and actually become quicker,(dirtier at times),and maybe they break the motor, but their FE remains as good as stock.
Most Big 3 V-8 hot rods(Mustang,Camaro and trucks ) do the exhaust.CAI,chip and get maybe 25 hp,and a tiny bit quicker-and they get maybe,maybe 15 mpg highway.If they are smart they skip the above add 150 shot, get 80 hp, become faster, break the motor, but get stock hy mpg.
I would like to see some acceleration numbers on this Insight-should be under 5 seconds 0-60,and maybe 13 second 1/4 mile.
It is a heck of a hot rod.Show me one that gets better FE?They started with the right car.
Charlie

I'm quite impressed with this modified Insight. I consider myself a reformed hot-rodder and that is why I so much enjoy my Honda Insight. There are several modifications you can do to actually increase fuel mileage. I consider it hot-rodding in reverse.

Daox,
You're a hard man to please.They had to good sense to start with a very light car with very little drag,and they added a small very efficient 200 hp motor,so it is low on the glamor scale.
It is a heck of a hot rod. Show me one that gets better FE? They started with the right car.
Charlie

LOL, yes I definitly am very hard to please. :)

I totally agree with you that this is FAR better than 95% of what else has been done as far as hot rods go. Like you said there are tons of small imports that have work done to them for power that really hurt efficiency and emissions. I'd like to know what the projects initial intentions were. Were they trying to make a fuel efficient hot rod? Were they just having fun and making a fast car that ended up being pretty fuel efficient? I'm not sure.

My personal feeling is that hot rods are a waste of energy totally on par with driving your SUV to get a cup of coffee. Nobody needs 200 hp in a 2000 lb car. They are, of course, quite a bit of fun, and if you have an efficient one thats even better.

My personal preference for a performance Insight would be to keep the standard 70hp ICE for its amazing efficiency. With that still in place I'd drop in a larger electric motor capable of handling 100hp or so, and add in a slightly larger capacity pack to handle the extra current draw. You don't need insane acceleration for very long. How long does it take a 2000 lb car with 170hp to get up to 70mph (since this is a road car)? After that, the extra horsepower is totally unnecessary and nearly useless. This would enable keeping the stock 1l engine and its good mileage and emissions, yet give you almost all the performance of the K20. It would of course be much more complex and harder to do. I have also never seen this done which would further impress me.

Daox,

You are right on quite a few fronts, but I still appreciate the technical achievement here. I've read the owner's comments on the car, and there were quite a few goals with this car. Primary was a completely "OEM" look and feel to the car. Very little completely custom parts were used. In addition, some clever tuning work was used to extract maximum economy - very difficult to do.

It does demonstrate that most of the econo-ability comes NOT from the engine / hybrid arrangement, but rather from the lightweight and aerodynamic body. Granted, the Insight is perfectly "driveable" in stock form... you can definitely get where you need to go, and can do so with decent acceleration and reach all legal speed limits.

This car just has a "fun" factor that's undeniable. I have no doubt that if desired, proper, low-emissions exhaust hardware could be fitted to it to retain ULEV classification similar to the original Insight engine.

Building off your idea, however, some rear wheel hub mounted electric motors kicking down 15-20 hp each, maybe driven by some type of ultracap or high current, low capacity battery pack which can be recharged by the IMA system while driving. Make it good for 10-15 seconds of full power operation, give a manual switch to force charge the auxiliary system and an indicator of its SoC.

40 extra hp with the electric torque factor would make the Insight flat nasty.

Nicely done... but I agree the results do not impress me....

Now if someone did a conversion of a Insight with four EV wheel motors....

Maybe like those at :

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html

The concept would not be impressive... wheel motor EVs have been done allot...

But a ~600HP EV Insight that ends up being cleaner than the original and four wheel drive... the result would be something more along the lines of what I would be impressed with / envious of as a finished vehicle.
:woot:

The guy set some design goals, worked hard and met them. I say great job, I would like to drive it.
He even started with the right color Insight.;)

Wondered when Mike would show up... ;) How about a 5-wheel-drive insight?

It goes to show that a lot of the insight's FE comes not from being a hybrid, but due to its small aerodynamic light design. I would love to see Honda sell a non-hybrid insight, and Toyota a non-hybrid Prius.

I like it. :)

Daox,
I thought the same thing.In the future maybe we'll have electric hot rods. I suspect that Honda probably used a fairly advanced,compact electric motor.Still maybe there is a way to hot rod the motor while using the original case.
It has been a long time since I gave any thought to what makes one motor more powerful, but I suspect that there is a way to do this.It probably uses electromagnets, not permanent magnets,right?
I can't remember-is the power produced strictly a function of the number of wires(and inherent resistance of the material), or the surface area of the wires, or the cross section of the wires-and the power of the magnets?I'm guessing it is more closely related to the resistance of the wires,and their cross section or their surface area.
I'm wondering just how much potential hop up potential is in an electric motor?
Still,I'm impressed with that Insight, but it is in the eye of the beholder.
Charlie
PS I would still like to see some hot rod numbers-0-60,1/8 mile,1/4 mile.

Phoe,

The power developed by an electric motor is primarily determined by the voltage applied across the terminals and the current flowing between them. In the case of the Insight, you have ~144V at a maximum of 100A, so you have a (144*100) 14.4 KW capable motor. Note that this power is a *constant* factor, which gives the electric motor its unique power curve.

There are two ways to increase the output of the electric motor - increase the voltage driving it, drive more current through it. There are limitations to both, of course.

Voltage:

Higher voltages increases the chance of a breakdown (arc) between motor windings, and therefore, thicker insulation must be used. Thicker insulation means fewer windings in a given space, and therefore less magnetic flux (lowers motor efficiency).

Current:

The energy lost to heat in a wire is proportional to the square of the current - doubling the current will increase energy lost by a factor of 4! Additional heat means more cooling is required, and chances of something melting down are higher.

Anyone up for hot rodding electric motors? :D

Anyone up for hot rodding electric motors? :D

Electric motors per volume and per weight are already very powerful... and they are already very efficient in converting the electrical fuel into mechanical power... I don't know how much you could gain from the same motor .... I would think replacing the motor with a more powerful one would be easier and cheaper than trying to sup up the existing one.

And with over 100HP available per wheel from in wheel electric motors... you can easily have more power than traction.

All of that being said... I have sometimes wondered about a custom made electric motor... but custom anything is always exponentially more expensive... and given the current state of motors you can just buy... there are not allot of things a custom motor could be made to do that would make it better than what you could buy.

My thought was just that the electric motors found in the Insight / Prius are likely a hair "over-engineered" - they can likely handle MUCH more power than normally asked to.

Overdriving them could make them push out a lot more kick, and would likely be same if limited to short durations.

Chances are the power cap in the Insight is just due to the current the batteries can safely drive!

The original concept car that the Insight evolved from was built around Ultra Capacitors... They switched to NiMH... But I wonder how much of the current Voltage and Amps the IMA uses are because of the NiMH and how much of it would be the same either way in an effort to increase part longevity.... I have no doubt the IMA motor can be driven with more than 144V and more than 100 Amps... I just don't know the durability and such if you over drive the motor... Besides.... If I wanted to add more electric power I think I would sooner look into the old dual starter designs to get modified... years ago a couple small companies used to sell starter motors that would also provide power to help crank the ICE at highway speeds from a secondary grid charged battery pack... The other option would be to replace the AC drive belt with a second electric motor to add power instead of taking it away.

swap the civic hybrid engine into an accord coupe, with a 6 speed that has good gear ratios for highway cruising, and lean burn capability. Then I will be impressed.