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Just as in Detroit, the battery rental discussion keeps surfacing? (http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/general-motors/chevrolet-volt-will-need-big-subsidies/)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Chevrolet_VOLT.jpgMotor Authority - Feb. 7, 2008

The Volt w/out the pack should cost similar to any of GM's mid-sized sedans. Add $4 - $5K USD for the 16kWh Li-Ion pack and the price seems right without the scheming. -- Ed.

Producing hybrid vehicles is expensive for carmakers but customers aren’t willing to pay huge premiums to cover the extra cost of the technology especially when they can get a comparable petrol or diesel vehicle for thousands less. The Toyota Prius is the current top selling hybrid but its prices start at $22,000. There’s no way GM could sell its upcoming Volt for that kind of money and still be profitable, which means the General will likely have to heavily subsidize the cost of the car to get it off the showroom floor.

GM is targeting a price of around $30,000 to $35,000 for the Volt, a significant premium over the Prius, but it will feature advanced plug-in hybrid technology that allows it to drive up to 40 miles on electric power alone. People using the car for short distances only may never have to visit a fuel station again… http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/general-motors/chevrolet-volt-will-need-big-subsidies/

There is that $35K number again. :(

Hopefully it doesn't actually go that high!!

Yeah right - $35,000! What a rip off.

Plus, I wouldn't buy a domestic car again due to the inferior quality.

Hi Sean:

___I am seeing the 2-Mode situation heading our way all over again? GM has all of $3 worth of HW and are trying to make up on the design on one product cycle w/ the $8K premium? The average new sedan probably costs all of $15K to produce yet they are sold for closer to $22K to make up for the all-in costs including past liabilities. The design costs are supposed to be made up in that profit pad, not on top of it as GM pulled with the Tahoe/Yukon 2-Modes :confused:

___Since this is a low cost Cobalt platform and those will be priced in the $16 - $18K MSRP range, the Volt’s upgraded electronics at $3K + the $4 - $5K USD pack still makes this a mid to high $20K vehicle, not a $35K one.

___If GM believes the Volt’s first year sales will reach just 10K, $35K might make sense but the Prius-III PHEV-20 (or 10 or 30 or whatever???) will bury it with a mid $20K price target that much sooner.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Another pretty good option is a used Prius II with a hymotion battery extender. This makes it a PHEV-40. Total cost would be used Prius $13,000 + hymotion extender $10,000 total $23,000. Hymotion says they will be selling the battery extender this year.

I guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

Another pretty good option is a used Prius II with a hymotion battery extender. This makes it a PHEV-40. Total cost would be used Prius $13,000 + hymotion extender $10,000 total $23,000. Hymotion says they will be selling the battery extender this year.

I guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

I like to hop on CarMax from time to time just to see what I can get on an '04 or '05 + PHEV cost. It allows me to from time to time say "for that price, you can buy a car that gets 150-200mpg". ;)

Question: How is it that A123Systems is supplying batteries for the Volt AND through its Hymotion acquisition converting Priuses to PHEV?

Both are a good thing, but when will GM corporate greed force an ultimatum? "End the Prius conversion if you want a check from Detroit" :(

Hopefully never, for reasons I'm unaware.

Most often GM says one thing but means another. Let me see if I can interpret for everyone just what Mr. Klutz and his North American Chief Troy Clarke are trying to tell us here.

What I see them saying here is that they REALLY do not want to make a car that will cut deeply into their "most profitable" low MPG business. They, and their buddies in the oil industry, want to continue "business as usual". Now, they have managed, quite successfully, in keeping their profitable GM European divisions high MPG cars out of here for just that reason. THEY DON'T WANT THE COMPETITION.

So now they are getting all this pressure to come up with a high MPG car because of their buddies, the oil industries windfall profits. Making such a car will louse up their railroad big time, but, they have to do something. They are being called UnAmerican, and other things.

So here is what the "brains" at GM have come up with. A great high MPG car that everyone would want, but:

It will be ready about the time your grandchildren start driving.

And;

Your grandchildren won't be able to afford it until they become a congressman.

I think the GM brains have had a lobotomy and Toyota, Honda, VW, and others are going to show them just how much has been cut out quite soon!!!!

When it comes to fuel-efficient cars, GM's explanation seems to be, "The dog ate my homework."

We'll have one if only we can invent a new battery...price has to go up...the radio and windshield wipers sure use a lot of juice...It'll be a great car, just dig deeper! Yeah, fuel-efficient cars cost so much, you can't afford one...buy a gas hog instead.


Harry

Hi Marc:

___From the numbers I have seen, there are only 150 - 200 PHEV conversions in country and not all of those were HyMotion/A123System conversions. I suspect they have maybe 100 in the wild over the past 2 years as a WAG. Doing the math, I doubt < 10 conversions a month are going to have any effect on a 10 – 100,000 unit order for 16 kWh packs from A123Sytems for GM’s E-Flex platform. On top of that, by the time the Volt is available, the OEM Prius PHEV will also be using Li-Ion’s from Panasonic EV. There are approximately 350 – 400K Prius-II’s here in the US and with a brand new OEM Prius-III PHEV available for another $10 to $15K more than what their used 04 – 08 Prius-II is worth, I suspect most would simply trade-in or sell their current ride and upgrade for all the new toys and capabilities rather than bother with a PHEV conversion?

___Just thinking out loud is all? I also suspect the PHEV conversions will drop in price in the near future given the real cost of an A123System’s sourced 16kWh pack is probably less than $3,500 right off the factory floor today!

___All, I believe GM (and the rest of the automobile manufacturers) see the word’s Peak Oil written on the wall just as easily as we do. The conspiracy theory about being in cahoots with the oil industry is a stretch but even if they were, $3.20 + per today does not make GM profitable. At $4, $5 and $6 or more, they have to move ahead w/ E-Flex or there is no more GM. They know it just as well as we do no matter what the oil industry is whispering in their ear.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Geeeez,I sure hope the Volt doesn't "not sell" for $35000. I can see GM trying to get $55000 for a Hybrid Tahoe; my assumption is that GM knows that the big SUVs are becoming niche vehicles, not volume vehicles.They probably figure they might as well sell for $55000,since they probably wouldn't sell a heck of a lot more for $45000-or $40,000 for that matter.Only affluent folks,gov agencies,and a few folks who can't add will be buying new,$40,000 gas guzzlers in the coming years.
The Volt isn't supposed to be a niche vehicle.The Volt's problem is-as Wayne and others pointed out-that the Prius II(2004) is so good,and the Prius III(2009?) that might have at least a 10 mile all electric range-is going to be even better.The Prius III(2009) probably will base price at under $25000.If it can do 10 plug in miles(at a reasonable speed,say 40 mph) it will be very hard to beat.For many,many folks a 10 mile range would be 1/2 their daily commute.
The Volt can't cost $35000.It can come in with a 30-35 mile plug in range(instead of 40),and still sell, but it can't sell for $35000-$10,000 more than a Prius.
If it MSRPs at $35000 then it means GM has given up,and plans some sort of reorganization.
Toyota and the Prius are hard to beat-A -$28,000 Volt yes;A $30,000 Volt it better get 40 all electric miles,;$35,000 GM is dead.
Wayne's numbers imply that a base Volt could sell for under $25,000-a winner.It isn't as complicated a vehicle as a Prius-no traction ICE with complicated ICE/electric motor meshing- just a little ICE generator and an electric motor.
Charlie

Never underestimate the power of the underestimation of American companies by other multinationals. :)

I of course hope the Volt changes the world. Who doesn't? But even if it falls short, it is enough of a scare to focus the Toyota, Honda, & other minds like a laser on their own game changers.

If you'll recall from works like "Who killed the Electric Car", the Prius (& Insight?) was born out of a real concern by Toyota that the Big 3 compromise with Clinton (no CAFE raise in exchange for alt fuel development) would lead to a Big 3 renaissance. By the time it was clear that Detroit had dropped the ball, Toyota was already advancing steadily to the goal line.

So, at the end of the day, we can all agree that the illusion of American auto ingenuity is still a powerful developmental force, even if the reality is a mere shadow of its former self. :):):)

Most here probably know Sally Struthers making the pitch for Save The Children to help a child in abject poverty in a place like Sierra Leon or Belize....many paradys when fat cat baseball players and others in the top 1% incomewise go on strike....why not have another parody on GM getting funding on the Volt? :p

Well said, Phoebeisis! Your statements tally well with my gut feeling on this topic. All we can do at this point is sit back, wait, and observe. I sure hope the result is a Volt in my garage but I'll just have to be patient (hard as that is).

Hi All:

___Just one more thing to add … Since this is a ground breaking vehicle with game changing dynamics for the US in particular and the planet as a whole, expect GM to be lobbying for and receiving a new PHEV tax credit package exceeding the $4,000 Alternative Fuel Credit available on the CNG based Civic GX. IIRC, the last Energy Bill removed all the PHEV credits (I will have to look those up again?). With a $4 or $5K Tax Credit (even if nobody receives it because of AMT), it would make a Volt purchase far easier to swallow at $27 - $30K for it (Invoice at $32K well equipped) if that helps?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Maybe GM is actually more clever than we are giving them credit for.Perhaps they are betting on $6 gasoline in 2010/2011.It could sell for,and actually sell well, for $30,000+ if we have $6 gas in 3 years.If it can beat the Prius with 30 more all electric miles,the high price might be OK.If it can do those 30 miles on 50 cents worth of electricity vs the Prius doing it on $4.50 worth of gasoline......? This would be $1300 /yr savings over a 10 mile range plug in Prius.This assumes 40+ miles per day-25,000 miles/yr and $6 gasoline.A $32000 Volt would break even vs a $25,000 Prius in 5 years-125,000 miles or so.
If you compare it to a 14 mpg SUV/pickup-you would save $16/day-A $32000 Volt might look pretty good to a Suburban owner.Park the Suburban-use it strictly for emergencies,and you pay off your $32000 Volt in 5 years.
I'm doubt GM is betting on $6 gas in 3 years, but they might be betting on $4.50 gasoline?
I sure hope the Volt isn't more than $30,000.Not with the new Prius and the coming diesels.
Charlie

I don't know that I would qualify for such a tax rebate, but it would be nice if I did.

I'm still hoping for a price right around $28k without any hoops to jump through.

The Prius TC saved me $3150 and put it so close in price(just $800 more) to a well equipped Matrix that it would have been stupid to buy the Matrix.
Since the Volt will be built in the USA with better FE and CO2 #s than the Prius, GM should be able to squeeze a $4000 TC out of Congress.
Maybe that is the origin of the $30,000-$35,000 price.GM is planning on the TC,so they are planning to get congress(us) to pay its R&D costs by overcharging early buyers who will be eager for the TC.Hmmm, a little smarter than the usual GM footshooting.It will probably work.
GM is so smart they are planning on a $4000 TC and $6 gasoline.

Charlie

I'd love to be proved wrong, to have GM have a huge success with the Volt, to have it exceed everyone's expectations, and to have it inspire a whole series of fuel-efficient vehicles from the Big Three.

I am an optimist some days...

Harry

When you guys are doing comparisons to a Prius PHEV-10, the comparison isn't very fair. The Volt is said to do any speed for 40 miles no the 40 mph or under of the Prius. I have a commute that is well under 20 miles but I need to go 50 mph (and really 60 to be safe). It would double my commute time to find roads that weren't 65 mph speed limit and they would be single lane 45 mph roads so I would be pissing off some people. Also the Volt is said to be a sub 8 sec 0-60 car - I suspect using just EV with a Prius would lead to 0-40 times that might piss some people off.

Don't tell GM but I might pay $35k if it is as promised. I also suspect a good TC for PHEVs. But if GM really planned on the Volt, why didn't they do some compromise work on the latest CAFE bill - ie go up 1 mpg but give us a $5000 TC for PHEVs. They got all sorts of crap for ethanol but nothing for PHEVs.....

Hi 300TTto545:

___The Prius PHEV-6 as driven in Detroit was a 62 mph capable all-EV, not 40 as is the current Prius-II because of SW limitations, not HW. The Prius-II has always had the HW but the programmers throttled back on that capability either due to the small pack vs. the larger PHEV pack or MG2 running at high output for such a long time. I believe it was the former as the OEM PHEV-6 we drove pulled strong and held EV for as long as the pack would allow which made it a true EV capable runner unlike the PHEV conversions some have access too.

___I am not speaking about a current PHEV-40 conversion but what we will have available in the next gen Prius-III (non-PHEV), the Prius-III PHEV-10, 20, 30 or whatever following in 2010 and the Volt in late 2010/early 2011.

___Good Luck

___Wayne