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I talked to a local dealer who said he's expecting to get an '03 HCH-1 into his inventory soon. I was excited, especially at the low price (~$7200). The only problem is that it has "high" mileage (160K).

I'm a little concerned about the battery packs in general. How long do they last? 200K or more? And how much do they cost to replace?

Would it be reasonable for me to expect to be able to COST-EFFECTIVELY put another 4 years/75K miles worth of use into a car like this? Also what do you think the resale value will be like in 4 years from now?

Thanks for any input!

btw the car is a 5MT!

Hi Subsonic:

___$7,200 for a vehicle with 160K is quite a bit of $’s? Although not the fuel miser of the HCH-I, a 2000 – 2003 Echo should be able to be purchased for about the same price with about 1/3 as many miles?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Subsonic:

___I did a quick check on E-Bay for all the recent HCH-I’s that actually were sold and with clean titles vs. the salvage junk and here is what I found …

2003 HCH-I w/ CVT – 142.K miles – Clean Title – $7,900
2003 HCH-I w/ CVT – 66.4K miles – Clean Title – $9,300
2003 HCH-I w/ CVT – 62.9K miles – Clean Title – $10,500
2003 HCH-I w/ CVT – 88.5K miles – Clean Title – $10,800

2004 HCH-I w/ CVT – 102.3K miles – Clean Title – $8,900

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Subsonic:

In addition to what Wayne said, I would suggest you get a Carfax report on the vehicle, and also look up its servicing history. If the vehicle has been serviced regularly and diligently at Honda dealerships, then that history is definitely available and worth reviewing.
Since it has 160K miles in it, and it is a manual transmission model it is very likely that it had the battery pack replaced at some point. The question is how long ago. If it was not too long ago and all else checks good, I would consider it for a more careful second look.
If the battery pack has not been replaced yet, I would consider avoiding the car since it would fall on you to pay for half of its replacement cost.

Along with the battery pack I would also look for any IMA specific module updates and replacements that were also likely performed. I would review the O2 sensor history, EGR valve and catalytic converter as well.

If in the other hand the vehicle has no maintenance history available then I would shy away from it with extreme prejudice. I simply would not buy it at any price.

For them to be asking $7K for it, then maybe they came across a certifiable and well cared for vehicle, that was driven well and also "maintained" well. Still, I would ask for a test drive and take it to another dealership across town for a quick 30 minute checkup.

Cheers;

MSantos

If the battery pack has not been replaced yet, I would consider avoiding the car since it would fall on you to pay for half of its replacement cost.Just out of curiosity, what is the replacement cost for a battery pack? Can't be more than a couple of grand, can it?

Yes - the age of the battery pack is key. If it's the original, possibly 5 years old, it may be toast, or close to it. I believe it is $4-5k to replace. If they'll lower the car price to $3200, may be wotrh it! :)

Just out of curiosity, what is the replacement cost for a battery pack? Can't be more than a couple of grand, can it?

It is a little under $4,100 USD (not including the labor, of course). For cars of this age and outside the warranty period, Honda will quite often offer to cover half of the cost for the battery... meaning that the final cost to the owner is a little under $2500.

In my view it is worth it, if and only if, you already own the car since the newer battery and BCM is FAR better than the old one it replaces.
If you don't own the car, then the price would have to be really low and the car in good enough shape to be worth the monetary ding.

Cheers;

MSantos

Subsonic298 - did you buy or pass? If you bought, how's it doing??

Hey, not all salvage title cars are junk! My HX is a salvage title that runs perfect! Maybe it was from hail damage [seller's claim].

I just expect poor resale value so actually, I shouldn't have spent much hopping up my car!

Hi 99HXCivic:

___It could have also been sitting under 12’ of Louisiana bottom water during Katrina too. There are any number of reasons a title goes to Salvage and trying to sell one is where it gets really tricky. A reputable auto dealer won’t touch them so a trade-in is impossible.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Just a reminder that you can still drive the civic hybrid without the battery unlike the Prius. There is an off/on switch behind the rear seat. Futher, if the maintance records look good and the dealer is willing to sell for a little less, this could be a good car.

___How do you keep up a charge on the 12V w/out the 158V pack supplying current via the inverter?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___How do you keep up a charge on the 12V w/out the 158V pack supplying current via the inverter?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The DC-DC can still function w/o the battery pack present. It's fairly well documented on the Insight now that you can remove the battery pack, unplug one of the MCM connectors, and drive as a normal gas car w/o assist or regen.

Hi Shifty35:

___Current has to fill that 12V somehow and when the 158V pack runs out? The inverter is not an alternator. That is unless the IMA MGSet is still providing something to the bus to the inverter with the pack out of the equation? Probably what happens when the dreaded IMA light pops I guess?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Yes, it just pulls straight from the HV bus, supplied directly from the motor. Probably very similar to what actually happens while driving with a full battery.

When the inverter runs backwards that way, it kinds *is* a solid state alternator... Basically just rectifying HV 3phase AC to HV DC like what the pack takes. Then the DC-DC steps it down.

I'd assume this is also the case when the IMA light is on and there is no assist or regen. Current in and out of the pack is disabled, so all you get is the "alternator" function and no Autostop.

There is ongoing discussion about this at IC.net - apparently the person who ran w/o a pack for a year+ is now running an experimental pack made of Prius subpacks.

Details are still sketchy.

Hi Ben:

___Thanks! I would love to have the ability to use this trick on an HCH-I w/ a stick yet with the ability to disable/enable it at will for uncontrollable regen during smart braking sections and than a touch of assist when and where appropriate.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Just Curious, has anyone here run a HCH or Insight without the battery pack? I would expect the smaller 1.3L civic engine to bang out some nice numbers compared to the 1.7L standard....even though you have to haul the non functioning battery pack.

Wayne, I'm hoping to test the clutch switch bypass on Laurie's Civic in the near future (probably after doing it on my Insight). If it works.... :D

Hi Sean:

___I wonder if the Cal-Pod switch will work on Laurie’s too ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I bought my HCH II this January. Before I bought the car, I took a test drive in another HCH II. It had just come off the delivery truck and was not prepped yet. The salesman said the mechanics had not installed the fuse (or something) yet, so the battery pack wouldn't be working. The car started right up, no problem. The IMA light was on and there were no assist or charging indicator bars. I didn't see a "battery" light, so other than the battery pack not working, it seemed normal to me. Don't know if this "proves" anything, but just my experience. Marty

I decided to pass on getting the HCH. I did something that admittedly was more in the pursuit of "fun" and got a 2006 Honda CBR600RR motorcycle. So far the motorcycle has delivered 34.3 mpg.

I'm looking at getting a Civic HX or something similar for my main commuter within the next year.

I currently use a 1986 Toyota MR2 1.6L 4cyl (5MT) as my main daily driven vehicle.

I also have access to:
1995 Chevrolet Cavalier (5MT)
2001 Pontiac Grand Am 2.4L 4cyl (4AT)

The Grand Am seems particularly hard to get good fuel economy in. It's frustrating.