Archives

New to forum. Just took delivery of a new Insight yesterday. First thing I did was to try a lean-burn. Wow it works but it's clear I really need to improve my smoothness, knowledge and skills. By the way, has anybody tried an electric bike like www.egovehicles.com for short trips?

Hi Mds2:

___Welcome to CleanMPG and it's great to hear that another Insighter has joined the ranks.

___A few items I hope you will consider right off the bat. Have those Bridgestone RE92’s pumped up to an absolute minimum of 44 #’s F & R. In the end of my Insight’s reign, I was running 60 and she could glide almost as well as a sail plane! A bit less then that but I am sure you get the gist ;) Take it slow and smooth for the first few weeks and learn her secrets. We will do what we can to teach you what we know as well … You have the temps in California to output some truly incredible segments and tanks in the not-to-distant future but just take it slow and easy while letting the iFCD be your guide. Try and stay off the higher speed freeways and out of assist if at all possible. You might just see a 100 mpg segment in short order. She loves to cruise along at 50 mph with the iFCD hanging in the 100 - 110 range after some break in of the mechanicals, the tires are scrubbed and pressed up. Just give yourself some time to learn to drive your hybrid and she will do you proud.

___By the way, not only do you own one of the last 5-speed Insight’s available on the planet, I am extremely happy you are here to learn to drive her like most here would. I believe GreenandBlue’s signature sums it up best: “Max the Meter’s”. If you do that, you will be amazed at what your new Insight is going to offer in terms of FE let alone fun and enjoyment knowing you are making a difference in so many positive ways.

___Welcome, and thank you for making an Insight your own.

___I cannot help on the EV bike but it looks interesting ...

___Good Luck

___Wayne

New to forum. Just took delivery of a new Insight yesterday. First thing I did was to try a lean-burn. Wow it works but it's clear I really need to improve my smoothness, knowledge and skills. By the way, has anybody tried an electric bike like www.egovehicles.com for short trips?


yup i recently purchased an electric scooter to take advantage of my 5 to 10 mile trips. Since summer is hitting, I'm trying to try to drive less and have some fun in the nice warm sun.

Since my battery charge is only good up to 5 to 10 miles it looks like I'm going to have to hypermile to get to my destination ;)

And for that matter, I bet much of the knowledge you will find here applies to the Land Cruiser I see in your info panel. Literally any vehicle is capable of better fuel economy as long as the driver is willing to make the effort.

Welcome!

Welcome to CleanMPG!

It's great to see another Insighter to share experiences with.

You have a truly amazing little car, I hope you are enjoying it.

I remember back when I was interested in buying an Insight, reading about the "lean burn & purge", totally outrageous MPG numbers, and driving tips from the "elder" (wiser) Insight pilots. That's when I was hooked, and decided I had to own an Insight.

That first drive home was so entertaining, the car introduced me to a whole new way of driving.

Good Luck & keep us updated to your progress.

Welcome to CleanMPG!

I've been happy with my 2000 5-speed Insight over 5.5 years and 99,000 miles.

The main thing I'd say is watch your hybrid battery pack and it will last a long time. Don't let the 12-volt battery go dead, don't go heavy on the assist. If you hypermile much, that should take care of itself. Even if you choose to cruise at 75mph but do it using hypermiling techniques, it will still be good for your hybrid battery pack.

Thank you for the warm welcome. I appreciate your suggestions, and will try them out tomorrow on a trip to Southern California. I will be home Friday and will report back on how things go. Thanks.
Mike Schuster

Thank you for the warm welcome. I appreciate your suggestions, and will try them out tomorrow on a trip to Southern California. I will be home Friday and will report back on how things go. Thanks.
Mike Schuster

Mike;

I drove around 3 or 4 Insights and really like them but I decided to go with the HCH II. The Insight is a vehicle in it's own domain I think.

Congrats and Hope (You) will continue to enjoy this Forum. :)

....The Insight is a vehicle in it's own domain...

You mean like

www.insightcentral.net (http://www.insightcentral.net)

and

www.insightman.com (http://www.insightman.com)? :D

You mean like

www.insightcentral.net (http://www.insightcentral.net)

and

www.insightman.com (http://www.insightman.com)? :D

Chuck;

Well that's a few of the Forums. Certainly (Honda Insight) Domans, Right ? :D

Hi, I did my first long trip Tuesday, from my home in Woodside, CA to Lompoc Hospital on highway 101. About half way south of King City the check engine light turned on. I stopped for a quick dipstick check, everything seemed fine. I drove on to Lompoc with the light on, the car seemed to run fine. Lompoc Honda looked at the car yesterday, they said the code was P2610. They told me they checked the electrical connectors, reset the code, drove the car and the problem did not reappear. Maybe it was just a glitch

So about the drive. I basically tried to do what you all suggested. Tire pressure 53 front, 50 rear. Average speed about 50mph. I was by far the slowest car on the road, but everyone who passed me was great, no aggessive behavior at all. I tried to stay out of assist, but 101 is hilly in places and I needed to use a few bars at times to keep above 40-45mph, I really didn't feel safe going slower than that. I also drove with my shoes off, that seems to be a help for a smoother throttle. Door to door was 268.8 miles at 92.3mpg. I took a picture for proof, when I get home I will post it. Lifetime is 74.9lmpg with a total of 356 miles on the car. So even though car is not officially broken it is doing really well. My overall impression is that driving the car is a lot like riding by road bicycle. The hills, headwinds and tailwinds all have an obvious effect, and you sort of live your drive dealing with them. It was fun and a game to trying to improve the mpg. Hopefully I will have an equally fun and safe trip home.

Thanks again for your help,
-Mike

Hi Mike:

___About the code set, I will have to look it up but resetting usually does not cure the problem.

___Here are some of the details that I know about with some sleuthing over at IC …

DTC: P2610 - POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM) IGNITION OFF INTERNAL TIMER PERFORMANCE PROBLEM.

___It does appear to be an intermittent little beastie that very few Insighter’s have actually seen. A loose connector to the ECU might be the culprit but I would be watching for the CEL to pop and would expect it to be the same code set as before. The cure for some has been an ECU replacement which is a lot easier then it sounds. Just drive it and if it pops again, make sure you ask about and for an ECU replacement because it is not listed in the Honda tech manuals from my understanding.

___About that 92.3 mpg FE … Not bad and excellent job :D If there is a chance to find an alternate route where 40 - 50 mph is more the norm, I would recommend using it … If not, Ridge riding may be more then just a technique to use, it should be in your repertoire of tools to use on a daily basis for the safety aspect alone.

___Good Luck and welcome to CleanMPG.

___Wayne

Hi, I did my first long trip Tuesday, from my home in Woodside, CA to Lompoc Hospital on highway 101. About half way south of King City the check engine light turned on. I stopped for a quick dipstick check, everything seemed fine. I drove on to Lompoc with the light on, the car seemed to run fine. Lompoc Honda looked at the car yesterday, they said the code was P2610. They told me they checked the electrical connectors, reset the code, drove the car and the problem did not reappear. Maybe it was just a glitch

So about the drive. I basically tried to do what you all suggested. Tire pressure 53 front, 50 rear. Average speed about 50mph. I was by far the slowest car on the road, but everyone who passed me was great, no aggessive behavior at all. I tried to stay out of assist, but 101 is hilly in places and I needed to use a few bars at times to keep above 40-45mph, I really didn't feel safe going slower than that. I also drove with my shoes off, that seems to be a help for a smoother throttle. Door to door was 268.8 miles at 92.3mpg. I took a picture for proof, when I get home I will post it. Lifetime is 74.9lmpg with a total of 356 miles on the car. So even though car is not officially broken it is doing really well. My overall impression is that driving the car is a lot like riding by road bicycle. The hills, headwinds and tailwinds all have an obvious effect, and you sort of live your drive dealing with them. It was fun and a game to trying to improve the mpg. Hopefully I will have an equally fun and safe trip home.

Thanks again for your help,
-Mike
Hi Mike;

Nice story/review of your drive. Sounds like to me that you have a handle on this Insight now and that being the case it is going to be very interesting to see what you do in the future.

Happy Motoring :)

Hi, I'm home. The headwinds were terrible. Only 80.8mpg. I really tried but I just could not do better. Usually the seabreeze blows through the Salinas Valley in the afternoon. I figured by leaving at 5am I'd miss the worst of it. Wrong. As soon as I stepped outside in the morning it was windy from the North. At 5am! I knew then it was going to be bad. And it was. Probably a 10 to 20+mph headwind all the way home. Even going up the steep 1500 foot grade out of San Luis Obispo there was huge headwind blowing down the hill. It was really terrible.

My dad used to say "Your attitude should be that you don't have problems or troubles, but that you have experiences. These experiences are life's way of strengthening you and developing you." I tried to think of that all the way home. I raised the tire pressures. I slowed down to 40-45mph. I got honked at once by a trucker. I thought about ripping off the side mirrors and front windshield wipers too. I tried drafting, but the trucks were going too fast to make it work. Nothing seemed to work. I was running at 75mpg for long times just barely in lean-burn just barely holding 45mph on the ridge. The check engine light turned back on too. Oh well.

Questions:
- Is the AC really off when you press "OFF"? Twice I swear the AC turned on when I turned off the radio or ejected a CD. What's going on?

- Why is assist in 2nd gear so hard to stay out of? 1st and 3rd are not too bad, I can stay out of assist pretty easily with a light foot. But staying out of assist in 2nd is much harder. I usually see a couple bars and have to breath off the throttle once or twice. Sometimes with a very light foot I can stay out completely, but this is rare. What gives with 2nd? Why is it different than 1st and 3rd?

- Driving along I had a bad thought. All these cars and trucks were passing me. Some where slowing down and then accelerating to pass. Those that did were using more gas doing so than they would have if I had not been there, or if I had been going faster. So I am willing to bet that more gas was spent getting around me than I saved going slow, especially in the areas with more traffic. So what that heck are we really accomplishing in such situations?

Sorry for these dumb questions.
-Mike

Hi Mike;

First let me share this thought with you if I may? There are (No-Dumb-Questions) ask unless the ones reading the (Questions) choose to make them (Dumb). :D

Mike your comments from above Post:

- Driving along I had a bad thought. All these cars and trucks were passing me. Some where slowing down and then accelerating to pass. Those that did were using more gas doing so than they would have if I had not been there, or if I had been going faster. So I am willing to bet that more gas was spent getting around me than I saved going slow, especially in the areas with more traffic. So what that heck are we really accomplishing in such situations?

I belong to more than just this Forum and the same question about the "Actual-Real-World-Savings" in Fuel, when any of us are holding up (Traffic) which in most cases forces the other drivers to have to use "Extra-Fuel" to get around us. Truthfully, I think you have already figured out on your own. However since you ask the question or made the comment I will give you my (Honest-Opinion). Yes we are causing more fuel to be used than we as individuals are saving. This is a {Fact}. No opinion here.

Now that I have said that, it will most surely open up a can of worms. :( I think to just make a few comments regarding this will be appropriate at this time.

Yes more fuel is being used to get around us if we are really holding up traffic and we more than likely are if we are driving at say, "50-60" MPH on the interstate. Traffic being what it is today, Very-Heavy to say the least.

Now comes the interesting part of these comments from me and others that choose to drive in a different style than the average driver on the interstates today. We do not hold up others really because we drive slower. They are choosing to drive fast and in most cases alot faster than the "Posted" speed limit. So if they fly up behind us and can't get around quick enough because they were not paying close attention to what is going on in front of them with traffic flow, then who's fault is it that they feel like they have to floor their vehicle to get around us. We or alot of us choose to drive slower and they choose to drive faster and as I just pointed out in most cases they are driving way over the "Speed-Limit". So who is (Right) or (Wrong) here in their driving style? The opinions will be all over the place as you more than likely will be able to read here on www.CleanMPG.com (http://www.CleanMPG.com).

Mike, For both our sakes I hope we have not opened up a really {Controversial} subject here.

I have tried my best here to (Truthfully) answer your question and I think you can see where this subject can get out of hand quick. I hope the "Members" here will use good judgement here on this Posting and not get this turned into an embarassment for all of us.

Terry

Hi Mds2:

___Do you know how many drivers in the world would love to say “The headwinds were terrible. Only 80.8mpg” ;) Trust me, you are doing great!

___A/C is really off. If it weren’t, you would know it as it’s like throwing an attached boat anchor out the window. Spin your Auto control all the way back to 60 degrees. It has a detent when it reaches there and you will feel it. Two quick taps of the Econ button to see A/C off in the display, tap the mode button until you see front vents only, then tap the fan speed three times to force max speed of 4. You will have this down by heart by tomorrow afternoon.

___Assist in second is one of Honda’s screw ups. Remember that this car was designed back in 96 - 97 and nobody had a clue as to how they were supposed to integrate a relatively powerful MGSet to the relatively small 1.0 L ICE. Honda thought it would be cute to make it feel like you had someone kick you in the butt. Unfortunately, you just have to be very careful when accelerating in second to keep assist at bay. Nature of the beast is all.

___As for the rest, someone here said last week that if they want to pay for our gas, we would be glad to speed up. Just learn to Ridge Ride for safety’s sake at all times if you are going to play between the limits. Try and get that right front wheel on the white line with your left front wheel riding the center crest. This will give those behind plenty of warning. If they get in a huff, it’s their own fault as you gave them every opportunity to move to the left and pass while out on the highways. Personally I would be looking for an alternate route or driving at an alternate time with less congestion because you do have to be careful how many you hold up. You may not be helping if you have these guys in Durango’s, Escalades, and Suburban’s flooring it while passing if they did not have a choice.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Questions:
- Is the AC really off when you press "OFF"? Twice I swear the AC turned on when I turned off the radio or ejected a CD. What's going on?

- Why is assist in 2nd gear so hard to stay out of? 1st and 3rd are not too bad, I can stay out of assist pretty easily with a light foot. But staying out of assist in 2nd is much harder. I usually see a couple bars and have to breath off the throttle once or twice. Sometimes with a very light foot I can stay out completely, but this is rare. What gives with 2nd? Why is it different than 1st and 3rd?

Sorry for these dumb questions.
-Mike
Hi Mike,

If the weather is somewhat cool, I don't use the A/C or the vents. Just leave it off, and slightly crack the side windows open. Then there's no doubt the A/C is off and no current going to the fan.
When the weather does get warm to hot & humid, then I set it up like Wayne described. And I also use a trick someone else passed on - use a misting spray bottle to cool yourself with. Brookstone has a spray bottle with a small fan atttached - it works great. It really helps when it's tempting to just switch that A/C on!

I know what you're saying about 2nd gear assist. When I was learning to drive the Insight, Wayne gave me the advice of "stay away from using assist".
It was impossible at first. I was still too heavy footed.
Now with a lot of patience, I can sometimes not use assist in 2nd. But most days 2-3 bars light up when in 2nd. (Don't tell Wayne)
I normally try to gain 5-6 MPH out of 2nd gear and then get into 3rd quickly to avoid the assist.

To end this message, I would say don't worry too much about the assist. It appears that you are off to a great start with the MPG's. Excellent numbers!

I am concerned about the check engine light coming on repeatedly. :confused:

Terry, Wayne and Don, thanks for your helpful comments and suggestions. I appreciate them. I am going to take the car in for service again Tuesday at my local dealer Menlo Honda. The service guy says they may have to switch out one of the electronic units.

Another question if I may:

I live at the top of a 250 foot hill. Access is via a one mile long climb that averages about a 5% grade, but some sections are nearly flat and others may be over 10%. So far I have been using some assist in 2nd gear, but end up at the top of the hill with two bars down SOC. And then when I drive down the hill with a cold engine on my next trip I am not able to fully recover the charge on the descent and end up driving around town with a MPG hit for the continuing charging. I have tried various speeds and rpms in 2nd, but I can't seem to avoid assist while climbing.

Today I tried something new. I stayed in 1st gear at 15mph and discovered that I could stay out of assist while doing so. Instantaneous MPG was about 20 to 25. I started the climb with one bar down and ended up at the top with the same. Now 20 to 25mpg seems really terrible, but I'm wondering if this loss will be made up for on my next trip down by avoiding some of the charging hit since SOC starts off higher.

What do you think? Is this a good or bad idea? Any suggestions on how to do better?

-Mike

Hi Mike:

___I have a few suggestions for you to try but cannot post them right now as I have to be hitting the road in < 5 minutes. I will try and post them for you before midnight. You have to hold my feet to the fire or I may lose this thread in the daily noise ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Mike:

___Here is a repost of my Little Red Beauty’s final voyage … Seems like just yesterday but it may help you endure some of the steeper sections you may traverse on a daily basis. If you are encountering 5 degree slopes, they more then likely have truck climbing lanes and those things are saviors when climbing! I do not have much experience climbing given my locale but I hope you find something in this to help you in some fashion.



___On the Little Beauty’s final voyage, I was running 58 #’s in the RE92’s and had a nice leisurely drive across the Eastern half of the country. When I hit the N.Y. - Massachusetts border, Trip A was sitting at 104.5. After the 80 + miles steep mountain driving along the MA. Turnpike, I arrived at my destination just west of Boston at 103.8. Approximately 40 miles of local driving after that dropped me back to 103.1 where I gassed up for the new owner(s) but that was to be expected given the killer hills around Shrewsbury, MA. while I went to a local mall for dinner, a movie, and then finding a hotel for the night. Remember that this was a leisurely drive across the country, not a normal “got to get to work” commute. While climbing some of those monsters through Western MA., I would continually let speed bleed off as I was shifting down in the far right lane with my emergency flashers on whenever I was below 45 mph. Any time I would see 4 bars of assist light up, I would back off the throttle a notch to remove it just as I do when accelerating from a stop here in Illinois. I would do this ~ 3 or 4 times depending on the ascents slope before I downshifted to the next lower gear. When I was finally down to second gear, I would follow the same no-assist regiment but with a little change in technique. I would slowly increase rev’s w/ the no-assist method until the little beauty was running 2,450 - 2,600 RPM in second while climbing the worst of the offenders. This is where the neat part comes in … Assist after ~ 2,350 RPM in second gear would disappear entirely with a very light touch to the accelerator and I could maintain a steady 20 + or - mph w/ no assist and the Instantaneous giving me 40 - 60 mpg while climbing the worst slopes! This was just below the VTEC engagement w/ no assist in second gear while climbing at this steady but very slow speed. Remember I was on the emergency’s and in the far right lane when climbing using this technique. On the backside of every one of the monsters, the Instantaneous would peg and I would gain most of what I lost on the way up while literally coasting back to 45 - 65 mph. From Eastern NY. all the way to Shrewsbury, MA., I had 20 of 20 bars lit on the SoC and didn’t see 19 bars except for maybe 5 miles in total of the last 250 miles of that trip. The 1 bar drop off was only while climbing the steepest of these offenders with the minimal/non-use assist method I have always used even here in Illinois since I purchased her. To top it all off, the Little Beauty achieved this excellent FE on her last trip while using 6-month old - highly oxygenated - winter-blend - 10% ethanol garbage from last fall! All but .75 gallons of fresh summer blend E10 gasoline before I departed anyway …
___Good Luck

___Wayne

Thanks Wayne for the helpful suggestions. I drove up and down my hill over and over this afternoon trying various things out.

- I have yet to get your 2nd gear idea to work all the way up my hill. The varying steepness makes it hard to stay out of assist even around 2400rpms. I tried to anticipate the changes in steepness with a light foot but can't seem to consistently stay out of assist. Another downside to 2nd is that at 2400rpms speed is a bit high for my windy 25mph residential road.

- 1st on the other hand at 2400rpms does work, it is very easy to stay out of assist in 1st at this rpm on the steeper parts, and on the less steep parts I can use 2nd easily with no assist at lower rpms. The 14mph speed in 1st is a bit slow, but not too bad. I can easily get to the top of the hill with the same SOC as I started with at the bottom. The roundtrip mileage up and then down again using this technique along with FAS or fuel cut on the way down is about 50mpg. FAS is not any better mpg-wise than fuel cut I discovered, at least with a warmed up engine. With FAS I do loose brake vacuum, so fuel cut is better in this regard.

-Mike

Hi Mds2:

___Are you running 55 + in the RE92’s yet as that should help with some of the RR. Mobil1 0W-20 is always your friend on the mechanical side as well. Once you get the RR and friction loading down, try the 5th, to 4th, to 3rd, to second and maintain higher RPM’s in second as needed. I would push in the 2,500 – 2,650 range during the steepest portion of the ascent which should be high enough to remove any hint of Assist. When you get down to first gear, your FE while climbing may be down into the mid to high 20’s and you can only double that with a full blown FAS over the same distance down the other side. The Insight is a better climber then you may think as 5% grades with a truck climbing lane at your disposal should be good for 50 + average on the climb out and infinite on the back side for a real world 100 + trough to trough. We saw some 4 to 5% grades in New York last month with two of us in the car, the WAI pulled, a maximum 44 #’s in the RE92’s, high 50 degree temps, and during the rain. We still climbed the worst of it in second without assist using a similar throttle technique as I described when driving out to MA. early last year.

___The difference between Fuel cut w/ regen and a FAS is a FAS has no drag to hold your speed down or hinder your maximum sustainable glide distance. If your SoC is high enough for the expected terrain and distance ahead, a FAS should always be your first choice traffic and terrain conditions permitting … Also, you want to be in a position where a FAS will include DWB. If you have to ride the brakes, Fuel Cut with regen should take priority as it will hold you back from needing the brakes plus you get the free charge using std regen and a pegged regen if you do need to tap the binders. Just make sure you really have a good handle on the differences between the two and when to use one or the other to maximum advantage is all.

___Take each technique to its fullest but when minimum traffic is around. I have the feeling the Insight is still very new to you and with that, the FCD can be overwhelming if you are not careful.

___Would you mind creating this thread in the FE of Honda forum? It will help teach that many more the ins and outs of the Insight if it’s not buried in an introduction thread?

___Good Luck and keep us informed of your progress as she breaks in, you improve on her setup, and you learn her ways in abundance. I have the feeling you are going to love what you discover ;)

___Wayne

I should have mentioned that there is a stop sign at the bottom of the hill. So I'm going up through the gears not down and avoiding assist is impossible in 2nd. 1st yes, 2nd no given the hill. And of course going down the hill I have to stop too, so I can't take advantage of a FAS glide at the bottom. This stop sign limits achieveable mpg. There is no way I'm going to get 100mpg on my hill. Tires 58f/55r, OEM oil.

I read on IC about a simple clutch switch mod that allows turning off assist manually. I tried simulating this yesterday by holding the clutch part way down while accelerating. This didn't work reliably, it is difficult to avoid pressing too hard and inadvertently slipping the clutch. So I may try installing the switch.

-Mike

News on my car's check engine light. My dealer called Honda Corporate Techline for help with the problem. They said they have new software in development to solve this known problem in late production cars. Should be available in June. It is OK to drive the car now.

It is surprising that they are still fooling with the software in a car that to outward appearances has not been changed for a while.