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Guys, this has me stumped. Maybe one of the other Insight drivers has seen or heard of something similar to this?

I went out this morning to start up Blue Swayed (:)) and as expected the gauges lit up, the interior lights came on, I heard the relays in the back, etc. When I turned the key, it wouldn't start though.

I didn't hear anything resembling a normal starter noise so I don't believe it is using the 12V system. I did hear a rapid clicking (spark plugs firing?) and the speedometer showed 0mph for a moment, then zoomed up to around 26mph or so. I've never seen this before but I also don't normally continue to try to crank it either. Not to mention I've only had the car since last Wednesday and I drove in an Insight a grand total of once before purchasing this one. :o

Recalling what I read in the user manual about non-start events, I tried pumping the pedal a couple of times before cranking, then I tried half pedal during crank. After that I tried full pedal on crank. No change in behavior.

I left it and tried to start it again maybe 2 hrs later... no difference.

My thought is that the engine isn't getting fuel. I would suspect frozen fuel lines (which is terrible because we are in a cold snap and my garage is NOT insulated), but the performance over the 2 days I drove it would seem to indicate the fuel was fine? The tank is still full, and so is the SOC.

This has me confused and I'd really appreciate any advice anyone could offer!!

If you just hear rapid clicks, dead battery. If you hear the engine actually turning over (ie, spinning up) but just won't stay running, we may have a fuel problem.

Check engine bay grounds and try to jump is my suggestion.

Did you check the charge state of your 12V battery? Also, if you plug a scangauge and set one of the gauges to VLT what are the readings when you try to start the car?

Any chance of having the dealer perform a quick systems check sometime in the future ? Maybe this happens to be one of those cases where the "traditional starter" simply refuses to start after so many years of inactivity. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

Is there a code on your ScanGage?

Like Shifty says the rapid clicking is usually s sure sign that the battery doesn't have enough power to spin the motor.There is enough power for the solenoid to move the actual gear that locks into the big gear on the flywheel, but not enough to turn it.When it is cold batteries produce less power, but it actually take more power to spin the engine(cold thick oil).
Look at the two places where the big wires attach to the battery,and the wire from the battery attaches to the frame.If the contact pints are really grunged up, not much power will get to the starter.
Check your manual to find out the exact jumping procedure.
Luck,
Charlie

Sean, If you have to disconnect the 12-volt battery, the Insight is going to do a forced recal - this is normal and no cause for alarm.

In ice-free weather, I'd consider letting the Insight roll down the driveway and bump start, then drive a few miles to charge the 12-volt battery.

I'd probably put the charger on for an hour or two in hopes it will be enough.

Ding ding ding! Ben is correct. :)

I hooked up my SG1 and took a look. With just the "dome" light on (with the driver's door open, it read 11.7V. When I turned the key to the on position it dropped immediately to 10.5V and a couple of seconds later was down to 10.4V. Cranking it causes the clicking I described and the SG loses connection with the ECU. Definitely an insufficient charge.

There is absolutely no corrosion on the terminal leads or wires that I can find. All connections are tight and clean.

What temperature can I expect the 12V to kick in?

Do I just replace this miniature battery (almost cubic in shape -- Justin told me it is the original since it has a sight window in the top) with a standard motorcycle battery?

On the Insight (if I recall correctly), at around -20C (-4F) provided that the ICE & IPU temp is also that low.

Cheers;

MSantos

Might be a good idea to check the 12v battery ground wires and their connections to the car. I read somewhere about problems with those causing apparent failure of the 12v battery.

Mine fired right up this morning at about 16 degrees F. But the poor thing does not like cold temps and mpg was lousy. So maybe not starting was a blessing?

My OEM 12v battery lasted 3-4 years and cost $75 to replace.

What temperature can I expect the 12V to kick in?

I'm not sure what you mean by this -

The 12v battery is used to power ALL 12 electronics in the car - lights, guages, radio, climate control, etc. The 12v battery is recharged by a DC-DC converter running off the 144v pack, stepped down to 14.4ish volts (like an alternator's voltage). The DC-DC is active when the engine is running or when the green Auto-Stop light is on. If the battery indicator lights, as during a FAS, the battery is discharging and the DC-DC is turned off.

Mike and the MIMA folks have found a way to enable the DC-DC during a FAS, which means you can FAS at night without excessively draining the 12v battery - though it will drain your main pack!

Hope this helps you understand the car a little better. :o

Edit: Re-read the question. Short answer is the first start after key-on must come from the starter or from a bump start. After stalls / FAS using injector cut-off, moving the trans out of neutral will re-start the engine from the HV pack. I've never been forced to key-on from a FAS / AS, but the lowest temps I've seen is around 11F.

Thanks, Ben. :) I was aware of most of that, but I was mainly curious about when the car decides to use the 12V starter instead of IMA to get the engine going.

As I do drive a large portion of my commutes in the dark, a FAS mod like you described would be ideal for me. That's why I put one of those Optima Yellow Tops in my Elantra...

I put a group 51 battery in (much better rated than the other, though heavier) and now the Insight is plenty happy. :D

Thanks all for the troubleshooting advice and recommendations!

The recal hurt, but I still managed 54.0mpg over 7.3mi at 9F with a cold engine in the snow. ;)

I bet the last half of the recal was - short...."Oh - I'm charged after all!"

Yup -- you know my driving habits well! That battery stays fully topped up at all times. ;)

My problem isn't using too much assist, but not enough time with the engine on - very few opportunities to regen when you coast to a stop most of the time. :)

When I lose a bar or two, it sometimes takes a couple days to get it back!

I put a group 51 battery in (much better rated than the other, though heavier) and now the Insight is plenty happy. :D

Thanks all for the troubleshooting advice and recommendations!

The recal hurt, but I still managed 54.0mpg over 7.3mi at 9F with a cold engine in the snow. ;)

What kind of battery did you put into the car? I hope it was a deep cycle battery for those long lights-on FAS times, rather than a heavy one with a high CCA rating. My Insight has a standard Civic battery and, for its weight, doesn't give the kind of performance I'm looking for for hypermiling purposes.

I'll have to check, Justin. Yesterday was busy enough it has already slipped my mind... I didn't specifically go for a deep cycle battery, but since I only spent $46 on it I could throw one in later if I need to. Even the deep cycle in my Elantra has issues at these negative temps, so I'm just replicating what I do for that car when I do FAS the Insight to minimize current draw while still staying safe.

I CAN tell you that the lights don't dim much when I cut the engine -- a good sign. I'm still trying to decide where to put the SG so I don't have it hooked up at the moment. A lot of my glides are NICE ON until I get that in place.