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http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071105/UPDATE/711050439/1148/AUTO01

Hillary is a bold woman.

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton proposed hiking fuel economy standards to a combined fleetwide average of 55 miles per gallon by 2030.

She also pledged to offer domestic automakers $20 billion in low-interest government loans to help retool factories.

Clinton, the New York Democratic senator, has courted the United Auto Workers and met with domestic auto CEOs, but been at odds with them on fuel economy requirements.


In a speech Monday in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, she joined Democratic rivals in taking a hard line on requiring substantial increases in fuel economy requirements. Clinton proposed a boost significantly beyond what the Senate approved in June, which is to hike combined fleet-wide standards to 40 miles per gallon by 2020. That's a 60 percent increase over the current 25 mpg standard.

A less-aggressive proposal would cost automakers at least $85 billion by 2020.

She argued that engine technology has stagnated, noting that Henry Ford would immediately recognize the engine in a car made today.

why so far away? our economy will collapse long before then if we don't start making some kind of changes much sooner than 23 years from now.

Many of the ideas proposed by the upcoming presidential candidates, including Hillary, will destroy our economy. We have very little leadership anymore that has any real experience or skill in making good economic decisions.


55MPG is a good goal, by I agree why so far out. I don't think is should be now or next year but given say 5 years to develop a new line of cars that is 4 generations of cars, if they are back to back reality is its probably more like 5-6 generations. We can do better than that.

I could see the Presidential hopefuls getting really serious about energy policy under this scenerio:

Another Katrina-type hurricane hits the Texas Gulf Coast and takes a hit on the refining capacity.
The Taliban or similar group take control of Pakistan
More trouble with IranWould rather we act now instead of waiting for things to get worse.

Well its not looking good for Pakistan and the current spike is being blamed on military activities involving Turkey. Besides the biggest threat is actually Venezula. They supply us with a LOT of oil and their leader is not only a nut but he is VERY anti US.

Most people focus on the middle east and Iran and Iraq and Pakistan, but there are many other areas of the world that could easily devastate our economy and oil supply.

55 MPG is a good goal, but it needs to be realistic, and it needs to take into account the effects on the economy, and infrastructure. I still think there needs to be a better distinction between commercial and non-commercial vehicles, including pickups and vans. I also think that MPG as the gauge of efficiency is flawed. A 2000 pound vehicle getting 55MPG is a good thing, but a 1000 pound vehicle getting 55MPG is not nearly as impressive, and an 8000 pound vehicle getting 55MPG is probably impossible. Yes I know its an average, but its only an average of the instantaneous efficiency of the vehicles, if the 60MPG vehicles only drive 5000 miles a year whereas the 20MPG vehicles drive 20000 miles a year are we really better off?


Sometimes I think like an Engineer WAY too much.

Leaving aside the details & merits for the moment, it's good to take stock of how far we've come.

The leading Dem presidential candidate is proposing more than doubling FE in our (hopefully) lifetimes. Sales of higher FE cars are trending upwards. The technology to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels is here; it's just a matter of cost for the most part. Climate change skeptics have stopped disputing its existence, and try to simply downplay the effects instead (or talk about Al Gore). Consumers have the capacity to change preferences rather dramatically (as we saw in the early 80s), and we are likely at the start of yet another wave.

You may think 55mpg is too ambitious, or not enough. You may like Hillary or you may not. You may be a Dem or you may be a Republican.

But let's celebrate this as a battle victory in a war that will continue. Proposing 55 mpg is yet another hill our forces have taken.

Edit: And I have 500 posts :)

One thing I rarely hear talked about when the oil subject comes up is the topic of other things in our society that rely on oil. Think about all the things in your life that are dependent on oil products and by-products. What other things can be done to reduce our dependency on oil, and when is there going to be a huge movement on this front. I propose that reducing these dependencies are easier, perhaps not as big of an impact, but easier none the less.

on EDIT: A small list of things dependent on oil:

Air conditioners, ammonia, anti-histamines, antiseptics, artificial turf, asphalt, aspirin, balloons, bandages, boats, bottles, bras, bubble gum, butane, cameras, candles, car batteries, car bodies, carpet, cassette tapes, caulking, CDs, chewing gum, cold, combs/brushes, computers, contacts, cortisone, crayons, cream, denture adhesives, deodorant, detergents, dice, dishwashing liquid, dresses, dryers, electric blankets, electrician’s tape, fertilisers, fishing lures, fishing rods, floor wax, footballs, glues, glycerin, golf balls, guitar strings, hair, hair colouring, hair curlers, hearing aids, heart valves, heating oil, house paint, ice chests, ink, insect repellent, insulation, jet fuel, life jackets, linoleum, lip balm, lipstick, loudspeakers, medicines, mops, motor oil, motorcycle helmets, movie film, nail polish, oil filters, paddles, paint brushes, paints, parachutes, paraffin, pens, perfumes, petroleum jelly, plastic chairs, plastic cups, plastic forks, plastic wrap, plastics, plywood adhesives, refrigerators, roller-skate wheels, roofing paper, rubber bands, rubber boots, rubber cement, rubbish bags, running shoes, saccharine, seals, shirts (non-cotton), shoe polish, shoes, shower curtains, solvents, solvents, spectacles, stereos, sweaters, table tennis balls, tape recorders, telephones, tennis rackets, thermos, tights, toilet seats, toners, toothpaste, transparencies, transparent tape, TV cabinets, typewriter/computer ribbons, tyres, umbrellas, upholstery, vaporisers, vitamin capsules, volleyballs, water pipes, water skis, wax, wax paper

A small list of things dependent on oil:

Air conditioners, ammonia, anti-histamines, antiseptics, artificial turf, asphalt, aspirin, balloons, bandages, boats, bottles, bras, bubble gum, butane, cameras, candles, car batteries, car bodies, carpet, cassette tapes, caulking, CDs, chewing gum, cold, combs/brushes, computers, contacts, cortisone, crayons, cream, denture adhesives, deodorant, detergents, dice, dishwashing liquid, dresses, dryers, electric blankets, electrician’s tape, fertilisers, fishing lures, fishing rods, floor wax, footballs, glues, glycerin, golf balls, guitar strings, hair, hair colouring, hair curlers, hearing aids, heart valves, heating oil, house paint, ice chests, ink, insect repellent, insulation, jet fuel, life jackets, linoleum, lip balm, lipstick, loudspeakers, medicines, mops, motor oil, motorcycle helmets, movie film, nail polish, oil filters, paddles, paint brushes, paints, parachutes, paraffin, pens, perfumes, petroleum jelly, plastic chairs, plastic cups, plastic forks, plastic wrap, plastics, plywood adhesives, refrigerators, roller-skate wheels, roofing paper, rubber bands, rubber boots, rubber cement, rubbish bags, running shoes, saccharine, seals, shirts (non-cotton), shoe polish, shoes, shower curtains, solvents, solvents, spectacles, stereos, sweaters, table tennis balls, tape recorders, telephones, tennis rackets, thermos, tights, toilet seats, toners, toothpaste, transparencies, transparent tape, TV cabinets, typewriter/computer ribbons, tyres, umbrellas, upholstery, vaporisers, vitamin capsules, volleyballs, water pipes, water skis, wax, wax paper



Air conditioners: We survived for millenia without these. We can do it again.

Ammonia: Not necessary. Easily replaced by organic products.

Anti-histamines: There are many organic origins for these.

Antiseptics: There are many organic origins for these.

Artificial turf: There are many organic origins for these.

Asphalt: Substandard to concrete anyway.

Aspirin: There are many organic alternatives that work even better, and which are not potentially lethal to children..

Balloons: If you mean party balloons rubber is the primary component. If you mean hot air balloons they are not a necessity by any means.

Bandages: Cotton and silk weaves work just fine.

Boats: We sailed the 7 seas for millenia before oil was discovered. Wood and metal do just fine.

Bottles: Glass is infinitley recyclable.

Bras: Cotton and silk work just fine, as do animal hides.

Bubble gum: There are many organic replacements.

Butane: Not necessary.

Cameras: Film is no longer needed and cases can be made from wood or metal, just like they used to be.

Candles: Can be made from bees wax and other materials, and are used more for decoration than a light source now.

Car batteries: Only the casing comes from petroleum, and this is easily replaced with cellulose-based plastics.

Car bodies: Metals, woods and many other materials can be, and are, used.

Carpet: Organic and animal sources can be used for this.

Cassette tapes: Obsolete.

Caulking: Most caulks are silicon- or rubber- based, and the adhesive component can be made from many orgins, including tree sap.

Rubber-based products: Have nothing to do with petroleum

CDs: Can be made from celluose-based plastics.

Chewing gum: Can be made from organic sources.

Cold : If you mean cold medicines most are based on organic sources.

Combs/brushes: We used these for milleania before oil was discovered. Wood, metal, glass, animal hair, etc. all work wonderfully.

Computers: PCB plastics can be made from cellulose plastics, and smaller component casings can be made from just about any other hard material. Lithography can be accomplished with organic solvents.

Contacts: Can be and are made from glass. Cellulose plastics can also be used.

Cortisone: Cortisone is one of a family of steroids. The others are mostly organic.

Crayons: Can be made from other wax types.

Cream: There are tons pf creams from organic origins.

Denture adhesives: Organic adhesives actually work better.

Deodorant: I have been using deodorant free from all petroleum products and metals for about a year now, My current favorite is Alba Botanica - Clear Enzyme

Detergents: Our household thrives on totally non-toxic and petroleum-free detergents, from the laundry to the dishes to the shower cleaner to the window cleaner to the hand de-greaser. Check out Seventh Generation, Ecover, etc.

Dice: Can be and are made from wood or bones.

Dishwashing liquid: See the Detergents entry.

Dresses: Made and worn for millenia before oil was discovered.

Dryers: Can be made from all metal components, and cellulose plastics for circuitry.

Electric blankets: The first one I ever had was a 50/50 cotton/wool blend with an organic resin-covered filament.

Electrician’s tape: Cloth tapes actually work better.

Fertilisers: I have been composting my own fertilizers for a year now and they kick the crap out of anything on the market. They are also non-toxic and actually benefit the environment.

Fishing lures: Any other materials can be and are used.

Fishing rods: Glass-based products fare well, as do wood.

Floor wax: Can be replaced by cellulose.

Footballs: Can be and are made from leather.

Glues: There are many organic sources for these.

Glycerin: Most glycerin comes from Corn rather than oil

Golf balls: These were produced for hundreds of years without plastics.

Guitar strings: These were produced for hundreds of years without plastics.

Hair: Natural hair will have value again.

Hair colouring: Not necessary and very unhealthy. Going gray is just part of life.

Hair curlers: Any other hard and heat-resistant materials can be and are used.

Hearing aids: Cellulose plastics will do nicely here.

Heart valves: Animal parts will do better than plastic, but cellulose plastics will also work here.

Heating oil: There are many,many ways to produce heat without burning oil.

House paint: Every paint product we have bought in the last year has been zero VOC and petroleum-free, and our master bedroom, powder room and overlook railing look gorgerous.

ICE chests: Somehow we survived for millenia without these. We'll make it.

Ink: Existed for millenia before oil was discovered.

Insect repellent: There are many non-toxic and organic alternatives.

Insulation: There are many other sources in use.

Jet fuel: Turbines can burn alternate fuels just like cars can.

Life jackets: The best and highest-rated life jackets in use today contain no petroleum products.

Linoleum: Easily replaced by other sources.

Lip balm: There are literally dozens of brands of petroleum-free personal care products. Check out Kiss My Face and Eco Lips. Not only are they non-toxic but they work and taste better.

Lipstick: There are already petroleum-free and animal-testing free brands.

Loudspeakers: Back to paper and rubber cones we go. No problem.

Medicines: I cannot think of a single medicine that relies on petroleum that does not already have an equivalent from an organic source.

Mops: I always liked the wood and cotton ones better anyway.

Motor oil: EV's don't need it, which is what we'll all be driving when gasoline is scarce, and gear oils are very easily produced from organic glycerin.

Motorcycle helmets: Cellulose plastics will do just fine.

Movie film: Unnecessary. Shoot digitally.

Nail polish: Unnecessary and silly.

Oil filters: See Motor oil, but easily produced with paper, cotton, rubber and metal.

Paddles: Can be and are made from wood.

Paint brushes: Wood and animal hair work wonderfully.

Paints: See House paint.

Parachutes: Standard fabrics work just as well as nylon.

Paraffin: Many other wax types work just as well.

Pens: Can be made from any hard material and organic inks.

Perfumes: Most are toxic anyway, but there are entire product lines that don't contain any petroleum and do not rely on animal testing.

Petroleum jelly: This is one of those products that doesn't really do anything well, and it's toxic anyway. I don't think anyone will miss it and homes will be safer without it.

Plastic chairs: Many other materials can be and are used.

Plastic cups: Cups can be and are made from any hard and water resistant material. Besides, there are alreay more plastic cups in landfills than we could ever need.

Plastic forks: I always hated these anyway. Give me metalware.

Plastic wrap: Totally unnecessary and has been banned from our household for quite a while.

Plywood adhesives: Most of them don't work worth a crap anyway, but they can be made from organic sources.

Refrigerators: Any hard material can be used for the casing, and rubber seals kick the crap out of plastic.

Roller-skate wheels: I prefer the rubber- and clay-based wheels to the nylon ones on my rollerblades.

Roofing paper: Easily replaced with organic sources.

Rubber bands: Petroleum is not needed for these.

Rubber boots: Petroleum is not needed for these.

Rubber cement: Easily replaced by sewn seams.

Rubbish bags: Way overused to begin with buy easily replaced by cellulose plastics. The bags we sparingly use are made from corn stalks.

Running shoes: Back to organic and animal ingredients!

Saccharine: A cancer-causing artifical sweetener linked to all kinds of problems. I hope it goes away long before the oil is gone.

Seals: Rubber works much better in this application.

Shirts (non-cotton): Just about any weaveable material can be used for this. It's not like we all ran around naked before oil was discovered.

Shoe polish: I won't miss this toxic stuff one bit, but dyed waxes work just as well.

Shower curtains: Glass doors look and work beautifully.

Solvents: The funny thing is when oil goes away so will the need for most solvents. It's the snake eating its own tail.

Spectacles: Glasses can be and are made every day without the use of any petroleum products.

Stereos: See Computers and Loud speakers.

Sweaters: See Shirts.

Table tennis balls: Oh noes! What will we ever do without Ping Pong?!

Tape recorders: Obsolete.

Telephones: See computers.

Tennis rackets: These were made for hundreds of years before oil was discovered.

Thermos: My thermos is made from stainless steel and has a glass insulation layer. It works better than any plastic-using thermos I've ever seen.

Tights: See Shirts.

Toilet seats: The toilet seats in our home are wooden.

Toners: Many organic sources work better than the petroleum-based ones do. We have a shop here in town that specializes in them, too.

Toothpaste: My toothpaste contains no petroleum whatsoever (Tom's Naturals),

Transparencies: Unnecessary. Project digitally.

Transparent tape: Oh noes! They can see my tapes! Seriously, though, cellulose plastcs will work for this.

TV cabinets: Mine is made from metal and glass.

Typewriter/computer ribbons: Cloth ribbons are great. Also see Inks.

Tyres: These are easier to make when petroleum is used but it is not necessary.

Umbrellas: These existed for hundreds of years before oil was discovered.

Upholstery: I have always preferred cotton, silk and leather.

Vaporisers: See Computers.

Vitamin capsules: Most are actually made from vegetable derivatives, and they are non-toxic.

Volleyballs: I prefer the leather ones anyway.

Water pipes: This will truly be a loss as PVC is a wonderful application that is easy to use, but many other hard materials can be used.

Water skis: The ski we had was made from wood and rubber, and has lasted for 4 generations now.

Wax: Again, there are many organic sources for this.

Wax paper: See Wax.




Will the world be a little different? Yes, but it's not the end of it. Not by a long shot.

A small list of things dependent on oil:
...cold...typewriter/computer ribbons...

Cold? That's rather general... in some cases I guess.

I take it you got this list somewhere? I have to ask how old is it?



I completely agree with you, it's scary how much we rely on oil.

I'll be much briefer: by far the greatest use of oil is for energy - not petrochemical products.

**** bailout, that was a LOT of work.


I confess I copied the list, looked over it for obvious problems and found none. I agree that we can live quite well without the oil in many aspects of our lives, most even. My point was why is there no mainstream press on these alternatives. I know energy is the greatest percentage of the problem, but its not alone.



Its funny how not long ago I was mildly interested in improvements in emissions and fuel efficiency. You guys are a bad influence on me, I am getting obsessed.









Thank You!! :D

Air conditioners: We survived for millenia without these. We can do it again.

Ammonia: Not necessary. Easily replaced by organic products.
......
Wax paper: See Wax.

Will the world be a little different? Yes, but it's not the end of it. Not by a long shot.
Wow.. you definitely took some time there ;)

Just a note.... I spent the whole summer here in NC (record heat) without a lick of AC. Its doable :)

We ran the AC this summer for a week when the temps rose above 100. We also ran the AC for a while a couple of weeks ago during the fires. After the wind shifted onshore the air quality was REALLY bad.

So does anyone know the percentage of oil used in things other than energy?

So does anyone know the percentage of oil used in things other than energy?

A barrel of oil is 42 gallons, and 44 gallons of products will be made from it.

19.6 gallons = gasoline
10 gallons = diesel fuel and heating oil
4 gallons = jet fuel
1.7 gallons = heavy fuel oil
1.7 gallons = Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG)
7.6 gallons = other (e.g. plastics)

7.6 gallons is 18.1% of a barrel.

Thanks BailOut.

Way to go Hillary!!!! God that *itch will say any thing to get a vote. Then turn around and promise the auto makers money to fricking retool. They can retool there own **** factory's or go out of business.

The way she promises stuff to the lazy and ignorant. The country will never be able to afford her stupid ass.

I bet she will give you 20% for buying a hybrid and let you look at her ugly butt. As long as you agree to a 50% tax rate.

I wish she would go to the UK. We always hated her in Arkansas.

The way she promises stuff to the lazy and ignorant. The country will never be able to afford her stupid ass.



Did you hear the speech where she said the US can NOT afford all her ideas? Not a smart thing to say, and it REALLY scares me.

Artificial turf: There are many organic origins for these.

hmmm, how about real grass........:rolleyes:

good lists, both of you.....

why so far away? our economy will collapse long before then if we don't start making some kind of changes much sooner than 23 years from now.


Why so far away? Because the person who is responsible for making the serious gains will not be her but some other politician who will have to deliver the moon and the stars while she only had to promise it.

Our economy is nowhere near collapse despite the doomsday predictions. Higher oil prices will eventually mean people will cut back and more marginal sources of oil suddenly become profitable (shale oil, for example).

Oil, like it or not is a proven, here and now commodity that will only be replaced by a cheaper proven commodity. Until that time, big oil is here to stay.

Oil, like it or not is a proven, here and now commodity that will only be replaced by a cheaper proven commodity. Until that time, big oil is here to stay.

Luckily for us, the environmentalists, the price of gas is likely to rapidly increase to the point where research funding is increased to the point where alternate sources of energy are viable. :)

The politics are going to get real interesting. The Wahhabi Saudi family and the big oil companies know from which party they would like our next president to come from. The last thing they will want next summer is for the price of gas to an issue. So my bet is that they will do everything they can to influence things. It will be real telling if the Saudis and or the oil companies can not vastly increase the supply just in time for the election.

A barrel of oil is 42 gallons, and 44 gallons of products will be made from it.


7.6 gallons = other (e.g. plastics)

7.6 gallons is 18.1% of a barrel.

Wow that was a lot of work.

The figures I've seen have about 4 gallons/barrel of bitumen/asphalt left "at the bottom of the distilling barrel." I think that would be the bulk of the 7.6 gallon "other" classification. IIRC new production has tended to be heavier oils that produce more bitumen and heavy oils.

My concern about your petroleum substitutes is that they may have environmental impacts of their own that may be as bad or worse than those of petroleum. They will present many new challenges.

My concern about your petroleum substitutes is that they may have environmental impacts of their own that may be as bad or worse than those of petroleum. They will present many new challenges.

I hear you. The simple fact is that consumerism as a whole is not sustainable at anywhere near the current levels in America. The days of us tearing through 25% of the world's resources are severely numbered.

Either the resources will run out or the Chinese or Indians will outbid us.

Our household is already making adjustments for this. We're reusing/retasking many things, buying second-hand, etc.

One thing that jumped off your list was bras made from animal skins! Yikes I want my racoon skin bra! (for the environment of course)

:D


--des

LOL, Des! :)

You could leave the tails on and have tassels....:p

I wasn't going to ask, but as this is going off thread anyway...

Does PETA object to wearing roadkill???:rolleyes:
REDUCE,REUSE,RECYCLE

you guys/girls are silly.

The politics are going to get real interesting. The Wahhabi Saudi family and the big oil companies know from which party they would like our next president to come from. The last thing they will want next summer is for the price of gas to an issue. So my bet is that they will do everything they can to influence things. It will be real telling if the Saudis and or the oil companies can not vastly increase the supply just in time for the election.


The Saudi family's relationship with us began with a New Deal Democrat. Party matters not.

One thing that jumped off your list was bras made from animal skins! Yikes I want my racoon skin bra! (for the environment of course)

:D


--des

ROFL.....maybe we can buy them in bulk

Hillary is in fact making some bold statements as are all the canidates.
I would like to ask...

"Who do you think is going to make the most impact (in a positive way) on the enviornment and our economy and why do you feel that way?"

I have historicaly voted republican...oops, at least in national elections.
I am certinly not happy with the course the current administration has taken us.
It is not my intention to begin an argument about politics between people.
I am admittidly still quite on the fence. I am tired of non-partisian agendas.
I only ask for others to openly share thier opinion to help enable an informed decision to be made.

I feel many of our issues have crossed party lines long ago.

Reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and the reduction of greenhouse gasses should matter to everyone. Whether a person believes in global warming or not, Supports the war in Iraq or not,...

I am new here, and hope I didn't open a can of worms. :o