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I don't want to start a "hot" thread but I need to get this off my chest. A nerve was really struck with me at a site-not-to-be-named today. I should have left a particular thread alone since it was clear exactly where the OP was trying to take it. The only reason I'm typing here instead of there is because, after reading his response, I know it won't do any good. It just doesn't make sense that the message has to be "buy a hybrid or don't even bother." It makes me feel like there's yet another class of elite that I'm supposed to belong to. I could have sworn the goal was to save as much fuel as possible, period.

Hybrid owners here, please don't take offense. I haven't deluded myself into thinking that all, or even most or many hybrid owners/drivers have that attitude. It's just that a vocal minority has a way of tarnishing the whole thing for me.

Sorry, I'll quit whining. It's a good thing this site exists, otherwise I don't think there would be any place for me to go with my ridiculous dream of better fuel economy with inexpensive technology :)

As a hybrid owner I do not take offense. I know exactly what you are saying. Some hybrid owners think no car can even come close to the FE of a hybrid. They should come here to see what the members here can do with and without hybrids.

CNN recently did a spot on "Prius Backlash". The Prius Driver came horribly self-rightous. The Hummer then the Escalade driver also though they were "special". All of them were disgusting.

Hybrid engines while a good thing are just part of the solution. The Insight depends on lightweight material and aerodynamics along with an efficient engine.

brick

I saw that also.

brick,

krousdb had a very similar problems a couple of months ago with this individual.

Hi All:

___So what did I miss? Can someone at least repost his statements here for all to see?

___In the bigger scheme of things, most hybrids’ can take down their non-hybrid siblings in just about any driving scenario one could imagine. That being said, they are not only very costly, the driver has to place a lot of effort into taking them to their natural max FE limits just as we do in our non-hybrid’s in many cases. Because most will not use the techniques we use minute by minute, it leaves a rather large opening to drive through in which the non-hybrid pilot can do some bragging of his own. It just depends on how far the hybrid owner is willing to take it and from my thousands of hours of reading and responding to hybrid and non-hybrid sites posts; most simply don’t have the patience :(

___To go along with that, I bet Phil and Brick would walk from one end of the earth to the other to get their hands on a well setup HCH-I or Insight just to experience lean burn at 80 and 105 + mpg’s while simply traveling down the highway. It is that kind of experience if I do say so myself!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

As a hybrid owner I do not take offense. I know exactly what you are saying. Some hybrid owners think no car can even come close to the FE of a hybrid. They should come here to see what the members here can do with and without hybrids.

I second that. With what I know now I'll bet that I could have done better with my '02 Explorer 4X4's 17MPG that I traded in for the '05 FEH.

And Brick, you seem to have achieved better than the EPA on your '02 Accord, congratulations. This site is called CleanMPG and is open to all who wish to better their mode of transportation's efficiency.

After 36 years of driving and having it become a chore, I now find it to be a bit fun again and I am saving money too boot :D

ARGH dont you hate it when you type up something, and then suddenly after all this time waiting for a link to finally appear it DOES and then when you hit BACK all what you typed is all gone! TO make matters worse the site you wanted to visit isn't still back up GRRRRRRRR

man and i had something good to say too ;( if i can remember anything it typed up, Bob can do better than 50 mpg, hybrid is not for the masses, no matter what you drive you don't need a GREEN label on your car to remove your gas guzzer status. The gas guzzer status begins with YOU by changing your driving style right now! Everyone gets a car by their loved blessing and so anyone that has one can get good mileage if they given themselfs a chance to try.

If not and by believing only a hybrid can get good mileage is not trying at all.

Well one thing for sure I saw that thread and thought, "maybe its just Bob" then i posted one more reply.

I really wish I can actually drive a hybrid to compare to really see if indeed mileage would be the same or better lets say a 2004 civic coupe 5 spd vs a first generation prius lets say . Right now when I look at the database all I see all are these 40/50 ish mpg tanks, and from the way I drive I'm not that far behind either (in terms of burning gas vs the distance covered) so I wonder if I were to get behind a hybrid would I get 40/50 ish tanks too? Or my ability to drive would set a hybrid car to get even better mileage? If that's the case then maybe I can believe that this is indeed a myth...

... but until then its NOT if I see my tank averages closely matching up to the greenhybrid database, if what you said was true Bob that average SHOULD BE MUCH HIGHER but its not, only a few mpg away from what I get on my NORMAL car and the only thing that is electrical is my 12 volt, alternator and starter system ;)

As for the prius marathon that you showed me many times, and I have read many times way before you showed me the link for it, that they NEVER INTENDED TO TOUCH THE BATTERY in the first place during the whole marathon. They just took advantage of the route, the low coeffiecent of drag of the car, and their own driving skills to achieve such a remarkable high number. I bet if you gave your Echo a 5spd, LRR tires, and atikstonize that 1.5 liter as well recieving the same areodynamic upgrades to .26 coefficent you bet that 116 mpg could easily be smashed thanks to the lower curb weight without the complicated hybrid system. You can almost say that the hybrid system in this marathon was just a drag to what really could have been achieved ;)

and yes i drive city most 90% of the time (i only drive highway when i have to travel from city to city), i do have a scangauge to report my driving habits, and i drive just like a hybrid would, shutting off my engine when I don't need it. The only thing my car is lacking is low rolling risistance tires, ability to assist my engine at its most inefficient times (but my driving technique makes up for the mpg i use to get up to velocity), idling at rush hour (sometimes I create large buffers for myself so i can engine off and restart without stopping) and the ability to recapture kinetic energy to store for use later.

Although....

I don't have to worry about no emissions system to warm up before my engine is off, I can do that whatever I want, in some cases managing to get to my short trip destination with hardly any engine at all! Sure maybe my car will break down in the future sooner or later with my driving technique but if i had to predict it maybe much less than the aggressive driver? Well my car still goes and I'm still getting hybrid mileage WITHOUT THE hybrid in the city according to the database of an average of 45 + mpg for hybrids in real world driving.

Barely any snow here, if there is British Columbians sure don't know how to drive in it but hell of a lot of rain. On a sunny day though its a great place to go outside and smell the fresh air while it lasts. At least the way I drive I'm getting twice the distance than how an average person would drive my car, so in theory I spew less emissions into the air by getting twice the distance in the same amount of gas. And the best part is, anyone equipped with a 5spd transmission can take advantage of the engine off coasting technique while an auto can abuse the N on their transmission to help them coast. No need to shell out cash to buy a hybrid unless you want the savings done automatically with less human intervention.

Right now here in Canada, hybrids are still at a premium, far from reach for the masses. But for the normal car you have currently you can at least milk whatever mileage you can get and can expect results you normally never would imagine if you gave yourself the chance earlier. The time is NOW and dening it any further will get you even better mileage? If people can whine and get better mileage than what they normally get then i'll be darn impressed indeed.

Lucky that's not the case... so Bob from a cold start and a destination of 2.7 miles? What's your mpg segment if my records are not mistaken mine was 36.8 mpg consuming .08 gallons for my drive. Although it was raining outside and the temperature was 37.4F I'll be sure to top that record if your willing to show what's the best your car can do on a cold start trip with similar temps and conditions. Or better whatever floats your boat ;)

since GH is down i'll paste this here and do with it tommorow! I wonder if Bob would take my challenge or word me down with some of his engineering knowledge? Sounds like not enough driving to me :cool:

Brick,
Although I can't get to that site right now (it has been down a lot) I can imagine which thread you are talking about. I have been watching that one for that past day or two. Bob comes off as the know it all authority on not only hybrids, but non-hybrids also. I decided that it would be counterproductive to argue with him, so I just make sure that I keep my mileage updated so my actions can keep speaking for me.

Phil,
It seems to me that something that Bob wrote awhile ago is what got you over here in the first place. After reading through your response, It is clear to me what Bob's response will be.... Coasting in neutral is illegal. Coasting with the engine off is illegal and dangerous. Of course it is no different for me than what the Prius does in certain circumstances. Since I have no power steering, the only remotely dangerous thing is losing power brakes after 3 or 4 uses. Still, I have used that technique over the past 20 years with manual transmission equipped vehicles and never had an incident or experienced abnormal wear or accelerated maintenance schedules.

ANyway, good luck with your battle with Bob. It will be fun to watch. I wonder how others will respond?

Hi All:

___So what did I miss? Can someone at least repost his statements here for all to see?


I didn't want to re-post the comments here, mainly because I didn't want to turn something silly into something harmful to cleanmpg. The cliffnotes version is that an individual has started and currently dominates a thread attempting to dispell some "myth" that a non-hybrid car could be built to match the fuel economy of a hybrid. Despite having been directed to several non-hybrids that have actually done better than he has done in his hybrid (in one case over the course of 65,000 miles) he casts them aside as irrelevant or "not reproduceable" for one silly reason or another. Reasons to care: we know that you can get excellent mileage in current production non-hybrid vehicles. Can you imagine what would happen in this "impossible" optimized non-hybrid? But what happens when everybody believes that you need a hybrid power train to get good gas milege? People who don't have one won't try for better FE if they think it won't do any good. What would happen if manufacturers believed the same thing? Well, that pretty much eliminates the market for inexpensive fuel efficient cars. Spreading this kind of nonsense can do only harm.


___To go along with that, I bet Phil and Brick would walk from one end of the earth to the other to get their hands on a well setup HCH-I or Insight just to experience lean burn at 80 and 105 + mpg’s while simply traveling down the highway. It is that kind of experience if I do say so myself!


Heck yeah! I'm telling you, if I had in the range of $13,000 that I literally had to spend, I would be out looking for a used MT Insight.

I did post at the other forum a hypothetical situation of hybrid vs non-hybrid along a very long highway streach - say I10 in Arizona and New Mexico. I would not expect much difference becauce the cruise would mimimumize the need for the hybrid component. In fact, I'd bet it would show up HSD drives. Not typical driving, but my stated point is I'd rather drive a TDI or another fuel efficient non-hybrid than a hybrid Durango. Have not bothered to read the response, but the "know it all" responded as predicted.

The real issue is an "expert" is dividing people interested in saving energy. In the past, he has suggested my sig be edited, claimed that dealing with troller Troy Heagy was best done by befriending him rather than ignoring him. :rolleyes:

All of us need to look at ourselves to see if we are effectively promoting energy conservation.

Smug, greener than thou and just plain condescending. One might consider that trollish, although I am not an expert on the subject.:D

as the often-posting-at-the-other-site owner of the 1st 'not-supergreen' hybrid, I (still) get several PMs and emails a month from the self-proclaimed greenerati slamming me for not helping 'the cause.'

Worse, some yell at me for not using the full power of my HAH, as though I am wasting capability (the 'if you have it you must flaunt it' argument, I suppose.) Why they are at GH at all is beyond me, other than to incite prpblems.

Even if hybridizing, for example, an Escalade is not very intuitive or particularly green, the same driver in that version versus the conventional one will always use less fuel. If its mostly stroking their ego, who cares? At least they are at least thinking about it, and using a little less. Sure that extra $5000 on the price may have been better spent as a donation to terrapass or some green group or purchasing a geothermal or solar sytem, but its their money.

The operating assumption behind hybridizing big vehicles is that the buyer is hell-bent on having an SUV anyway, and that it is an inefficient use of resources to try to change their mind to any great extent (that is another debate althogether). Simultaneously, of course, there needs to nevertheless be an effort to 'reprogram' that consumer to NOT buy the SUV in the 1st place.

10% less in a vehicle class that dominates over the compact/superefficient class, to me, is worth a lot more than 20 or 30 or even 50% in the smaller class. A little 1st semester calculus would determine exactly what fleet size causes the crossover between which group is saving more, but you get the point. A 1mpg increase in CAFE is a huge improvement, after all. Sure it could be much better, but its a start.

Enough rambling. I hope this site remains free of greenerati and simply focused on maximizing what you've got- whatever that happens to be.

Worse, some yell at me for not using the full power of my HAH, as though I am wasting capability (the 'if you have it you must flaunt it' argument, I suppose.) Why they are at GH at all is beyond me, other than to incite prpblems.

There are at least a couple of "need for speed guys" over there that seem to think cruising at 80mph is perfectly normal. This week's Time zine talks about drivers routinely going 70 in a 55 zone.

I don't expect everyone to drive Civics and Prius', but Escalades just rub me the wrong way as an inheretly anti-hypermiling machine. We have always had indulgences, but the last twenty years it seems vehicles and fast foods have been supersized. :(

I hate the Mercury Fornicators, er, Aviators.

There are at least a couple of "need for speed guys" over there that seem to think cruising at 80mph is perfectly normal. This week's Time zine talks about drivers routinely going 70 in a 55 zone.

I don't expect everyone to drive Civics and Prius', but Escalades just rub me the wrong way as an inheretly anti-hypermiling machine. We have always had indulgences, but the last twenty years it seems vehicles and fast foods have been supersized. :(


fortunately the supersized meal phenomenon has gone the way of the Atkins' diet...with large SUVs to follow...

fortunately the supersized meal phenomenon has gone the way of the Atkins' diet...with large SUVs to follow...

A few years ago, automakers could count on a core group of 1.5 million households to buy full-size SUVs, according to Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research. Even before this year, higher gas prices had eroded that market. Only about 700,000 U.S. households are now in the market for full-size models.

....however, Hummer sales have never been better in Dallas. :(

National Hummer sales nearly tripled from 2,220 sales in March 2005 to 6,125 in March 2006, according to research by Autodata Corp

MSNBC Story (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12571874/)

Some times I wonder if they even know what a hybrid is. I think it has to have a battery.... LMAO. Dont tell anybody Waynes nuke plant and coal fired electric plants are hybrids. My ribs are hurting from laughing....

i stop trying, i'll just let him win. Guys like him made me drive like a 30 mpg segment today gah ~!

not to mention getting flamed here http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258611 was just as bad.

I will continue to convince those that need more of my help rather than those kind of guys who believes engineering will save us all... more like we can save ourselfs just by changing the way we do and think things, thank you very much.

As for those civic guys, I dunno.

i stop trying, i'll just let him win. Guys like him made me drive like a 30 mpg segment today gah ~!

not to mention getting flamed here http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258611 was just as bad.

I will continue to convince those that need more of my help rather than those kind of guys who believes engineering will save us all... more like we can save ourselfs just by changing the way we do and think things, thank you very much.

As for those civic guys, I dunno.

Just taking a glance at that thread, it looks like a lot of them will be watching the next Fast & Furious movie this summer. :(

One members' sig: God must love stupid people - he made so many of them. I'd say that forum is very "godly". :p

Just put on the thick skin.

I did see afew that did run higher than normal psi. in that thread.

I only run the tires up to max psi on the sidewall. I let 2 psi out of the rears on the Civic this week. Was getting getting off I-44 west onto hwy 75 south the other day. Its a old clover leaf type interchange. The expansion joints are very bad in the corner leading to the on ramp to 75 south. The on ramp its self is very short over the top of a over pass. I looked and saw a line of traffic as far as the eye could see. I had no choice but to lay the coals to the Civic and dig her in hard on that curve. With the higher psi in the rear tires the rear end started drifting out because of the expansion joint bumps. Wife just hung on and stated " I guess we arent hypermiling this corner are we." I refuse to stop at on ramps. Took the same corner hard yesterday and it stayed planted a whole lot better. So it looks like 44 psi front and 42 psi rear.

I couldn't resist. I responded to the thread.

I'm doomed to get flamed.

you may just saved me tom ;)

hm although my car's recommends 30 30 for both front and rear i was considering doing a 2 front psi bias (kinda like what the toyota prius does) i wonder what was the science behind it?

the science behind higher pressure in the tires?

lowered rolling resistance- higher pressure allows the tire to maintain a more circular shape, deforming less. That deformation is the source of a lot of the RR. It also reduces the tread footprint/contact surface.

fwiw, The sticker says 32/32 for the HAH. I run 40/38.

back to our regularly scheduled thread...

the science behind higher pressure in the tires?

lowered rolling resistance- higher pressure allows the tire to maintain a more circular shape, deforming less. That deformation is the source of a lot of the RR. It also reduces the tread footprint/contact surface.

fwiw, The sticker says 32/32 for the HAH. I run 40/38.

back to our regularly scheduled thread...


no i meant for the 2 psi bais for the front? I guess because the front has more weight? and the back has less? but why!?!

Hi Phil:

___The F/R weight bias is exactly why many Prius II drivers run the 2 # delta from front to rear. Dan did tell me while on our way to the Tour Del Sol the bias was supposedly supposed to help reduce a shimmy while in turbulant air flow as well?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Is there any point in that delta? I would think it would have to do with load carrying capacity and that the front would more psi to accomodate the engine weight. I would think once you went above the front psi then it wouldn't realy matter.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1309082#post1309082

whoo hoo found a true TDI'er that bump starts more than 10 times a day! his more details in his post repliing to mine!

we should recruit him :P

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1309082#post1309082

whoo hoo found a true TDI'er that bump starts more than 10 times a day! his more details in his post repliing to mine!

we should recruit him :P

Sounds like a good idea. :)

brick,

Noticed that the person annoying you posted a poll on my 3.5 day vacation on a Honda vs. Prius owners' rivalry. Hybrid sales are just 1% of the market - it's idotic to have hybrid drivers at each other.

brick,

Noticed that the person annoying you posted a poll on my 3.5 day vacation on a Honda vs. Prius owners' rivalry. Hybrid sales are just 1% of the market - it's idotic to have hybrid drivers at each other.
Chuck;
I think that there is not many that realize what you just said. We are the minority in the Bigger Picture.

Yeah, I noticed that. It's silly but when I read the responses it doesn't look like anybody really buys it. I don't think the OP is truly serious about it, anyway.

http://www.cartalkcanada.com/forum/index.php/topic,45824.0.html

boo canadians bashing me once again!

on the positive side http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/060516-4.htm wayne gets press!


2006 Tour De Sol entrants average 3.5 L/100 km


Saratoga Spa, New York - The 2006 Tour de Sol, the 18th annual green car event organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA), wrapped up last weekend, with entrants demonstrating an average of 3.5 L/100 km (80 mpg Imp). That figure is 140 per cent above the current CAFE average for fuel efficiency in the U.S.

The Tour de Sol consists of several events that challenge students, independent teams and auto manufacturers to build one-of-a-kind or production vehicles that reduce gasoline use and work toward zero climate change emissions.

In the Monte Carlo-style rally, grand prize winner Wayne Gerdes of Illinois drove a stock Honda Insight from Chicago to Saratoga Spa, New York on a single tank of gas, achieving 90.4 mpg (2.6 L/100 km, or 108 mpg Imp). Other Insights in the competition sported turbochargers, plug-in charging, and a fifth wheel powered by an electric motor.

In the alternative fuel division of the rally, Homeland Energy Resources Development drove a Honda GX on compressed natural gas; Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems entered an Austin Mini converted to run on 100 per cent vegetable oil; and the Gavin Watson team drove a 1973 Porsche 914 powered by 100 per cent soybean oil.

In the Tour de Sol Championship, the West Philadelphia High School team took top honours with a purpose-built sports car that accelerates from zero to 96 km/h in 5.5 seconds, with a fuel economy of 55 mpg (4.2 L/100 km, or 67 mpg Imp).

http://www.cartalkcanada.com/forum/index.php/topic,45824.0.html

boo canadians bashing me once again!

Could have fooled me - their courtsey seemed American. :eek:

I'm clueless on "illegal techniques", unless maybe it's FAS while your vehicle is in motion.

Hi Phil:

___I read your thread and although I would like to get in there and do some serious talk, it’s just not worth it. Might I suggest a less confrontational approach? Like I can give advice out on that ;) Instead of running into a dry forest and throwing matches around, just post a segment or two’s drive and the interested will follow. They do not understand how tire pressures at or above MAX sidewall benefit more then just RR or how ABS and braking act in a FAS, and/or PS act in IG-II w/ ICE-Off, nor do some have an idea as to the synchro’s in the MT work while in a NICE-On while moving or not by the looks of it? I can sometimes be a bit aggressive in the various forums as well but in DriveAccord for example, I try to post with a toned response knowing most are only receiving ½ the FE on average and are a bit ticked off about fuel prices in general. Just take it a bit slower with the gear heads and they will come around eventually or live with their rigs while spewing double the emissions and spending twice as much on fuel. It is still their choice and no matter how much we would all love to change their habits and ways, it has got to come from within. Or until gas rationing arrives sometime in the distant future and they will be looked upon harshly for driving in-efficiently while out on the road.

___Thanks for the Tour Del Sol link. It looks like the auto sites are grabbing onto the Tour’s press release not knowing what Dan I received in the 2 separate events?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Phil, it's too bad people can be that way. Too bad the attitude is rampant.
I hope to post over at that Canadan site later this evening if the registration proccess goes through.

Analogy:
Makes me wonder if people run their winter thermostat up to 95 becuase they like it that way?
Then complain about heating cost?
Guess if they turned it down to 68 degrees their pipes would freeze, right? :rolleyes:

Come to think of it, at least a few Canucks have been notorious for going very fast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_T._Kirk). :D

I might register and attempt to talk some logic to them. ;)

ugh dont bother they even grabbed some of my posts and even used my avatar agaist me.

Its almost like the story I was telling about the SUV lady, she was the one that deserved to speed up and stop at a red light....

I'm losing faith again, but then again its expected when people pick your weakest points and throw it right back at you. Even though the main topic at hand was something else from the very beggining.

Like a teenage person would say, "Whatever."

And I break a few laws, but they make it sound like I'm hardcore badass and I"m going to murder someone someday. Like Wayne said, no more matches I'm sick of it instead of people actually trying to argue and discuss my points in a intelligent matter instead of turning it into a "lets point at the fuel economy loser! and pick out any weak points that he may have and throw it back at him so he never hypermiles or drives again! Don't need another bitch like him driving on our roads."

Very discouraging, I dunno I'm just... well my friend had some good advice:


[00:24] <philmcneal> wow #### i got flamed big time
[00:25] <philmcneal> man people are so agaist my driving
[00:25] <patrick_stewart> hahah link me
[00:27] <philmcneal> http://www.cartalkcanada.com/forum/index.php/topic,45824.0.html
[00:27] <philmcneal> bleh **** it, i give up
[00:27] <philmcneal> i can't reply i'll just get flamed more
[00:31] <LL|ChuckNorris> :S
[00:31] <patrick_stewart> you're probably posting to the wrong audience
[00:33] <patrick_stewart> they're probably not into the practical aspects of driving and more about the usual macho crap that 99% of car guys are
[00:34] <patrick_stewart> drawing attention to their fast flashy cars and away from their own personal inadequacies
[00:34] <philmcneal> hm funny my FE friends said the same thing you said lol
[00:34] <philmcneal> although maybe my approach is too agressive? hm
[00:35] <LL|ChuckNorris> I drive faster all the time, because my car doesn't kill dolphins, Chuck Norris does, with one punch!
[00:35] <LL|ChuckNorris> P.S. Tyres should be at the correct pressure, any more that that and you could slide off the road on a wet/icy corner. I'd rather be alive than saving a few cents per mile...
[00:35] <LL|ChuckNorris> ... **** right he does!
[00:36] <philmcneal> lol but there has been studies that higher pressure prevent hydroplanning!
[00:36] <philmcneal> what a bitch people are these days
[00:36] <philmcneal> whatever like trevor said too much macho
[00:36] <philmcneal> need to find a more acceptable audience
[00:36] <patrick_stewart> can't win everybody over
[00:36] <philmcneal> **** i just hate it when they start picking at me personallity
[00:36] <philmcneal> like making fun of my son and ****
[00:36] <patrick_stewart> some people are very set in their ways, even if to you they are obviously stupid ways
[00:37] <philmcneal> like what ****ing pricks
[00:37] <philmcneal> not one ride that my son did not enjoy
[00:37] <patrick_stewart> hahahah, that's hilarious
[00:37] <patrick_stewart> what lows won't the internet stoop to


Indeed I need to look for an audience that really cares. But one post did catch my eye...

Even if your tires do not blow up on you, they will wear in the middle in no time. In any size, at any cost, it takes more to replace tires then what you save on gas.
Your engine works outside of the designed temperature envelope, which means fouling everything- from spark plugs to your catalytic converter. Plus, your oil probably has never get to operating temperature (it takes much more time for the oil to get warm then the coolant). You do not ever burn the moisture and fuel contamination out of your oil. That means the sludging possibility is eminent, even with synthetic oil.
Re-starting the engine as often as you do increases the oil contamination by the fuel and removes vital lubrication layer from the cylinder walls.
Your exhaust will rust out very fast too because the water condensation there does not ever burn off.
It is not quite safe to switch the automatic transmission from D to N while driving. Depending on conditions you might as well switch into R with all the consequences.
As was mentioned before, you lose ABS, EBD, power steering and get a strong possibility of the steering wheel lock-up.
I have the ScanGauge as well. As much as I like it for everything else, it is not as accurate in measuring the fuel consumption as "at-the-pump" method. I log both every fill-up, and the SG readings are usually off by more then 10%, no matter what engine size you set in SG.
To me, some of your tips totally make sense, although many are just not helpful, and some are quite dangerous.

hm i think i'll drop it now. But the truth is, my son loved every single ride I took him. Although most the time he passes out what a bugger!

Phil, I really hate their all-too-common attitude.
I've registered there but decided to wait and post later. I don't think much more could be added for the current crowd over there.

I hope you don't mind me saying...when I read the 1st post in the thread it reminded me of a time last summer when I put a sticker on my rear bumper that read "I get 65MPG...You?"

Previously 1.5 years before placing that sticker I'd never, even once had anyone (severely) tailgate, flash lights, gesture or nothing like that.
When I began my hypermile training courtesy on the road was #1 (and still is more/less)

The first hour I had the sticker on I was following another car with a good buffer when an old pickup truck began flashing lights, tailgating, acting like he's going to ram, etc.
This continued for about 2-3 miles and I was going get out of this fool's way but he blasted his horn and pulled off twards a strip mall.

Later I arrived to a stop light alone, and as I waited a minute someone pulled in line behind me. The light was green for .0001 second before they began blaring horn, flashing lights and gestures.

The 2nd day was just as bad.

I don't need this kind of crap so I removed the sticker.
Instantly back to a normal, courtious drive ever since.

So why the hostility?
Honestly, the only reason I placed that sticker was to raise eyebrows that fantastic efficiency is possible, but I got the opposite.

For some reason or another when I read your opening thread, my sticker experience came to mind.

Both you, I and everyone else at this site realize that we don't have to be held captive by fuel prices...and how much bad/good habits really affect that.
I've had a few good experiences trying to let folks know this secret.
During Katrina crisis I crashed the Navigator board at Edmunds.
Here was my technique for "Crashing" their SUV board without offense- first the introduction, then more details, then how to get better MPG:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee94fbb/1438
My first post there begins on #1447

I consider that thread as one of my biggest achievements, as one person raised a couple of tanks to over 28MPG. Very significant. He called it "Woosey-Footing" and don't know if he kept it up, but I like to think I've helped someone.

Another example...
We all know the sometimes bitter rivalry between hybrid>>>><<<<diesel.
There is another opportunity to "spread the word" so I crashed that as well:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=136579

While I wasn't quite as tactful as the Edmunds example, it did get some converstation going.
Many diesel enthusiasts have the same attitude as I've ran into with the Civic forums at automotive foruns.com is.........."It's a Civic, I don't have to drive any differently because it just gets good mileage"

Phil, I REALLY APPLAUD you for helping get the word out.
You can be glad that you've helped someone in that thread, someone you're not aware of.

This is why I love this place, and why my hat is off to Tom and Wayne for creating it- and hopefully it will stay troll-and-unrepentant-gearhead free!

GH is a good place- by virtue of its google rank and that its been around for a bit. Like most other things, some deals with the maybe-devil have been made, but life goes on, and it is still a resource. It is extremely frustrating there at times (hence why I come to the sanctuary here).

But, sold-out or not, a LOT of 'regular folk' still walk through those doors via a google search or carsdirect or something, honestly hoping to be able to do something- anything.

They are a blank slate. If they see nothing but flame wars and their questions are ignored, they walk away. But if one or two take the time to seriously answer their concerns, you've begun to hook them. Soon they will be looking to compound the improvements they just gained... possibly provided in a quieter environ such as CMPG.

Sort of like being a teacher- most don't care, a few are openly contrarian or disrespectful, and the lightblulb turns on (13W CFL, of course) for another few. It is those few that make the experience worth it, year in and year out. You ID them,hook them, and provide all the resources and runway they need to take off. Wayne and Georgia did that to me a year ago. I hope to be passing the same to a few others here and there.

One of the things a teacher does with the bright bulbs is take them out of the general class and push them in a smaller setting where a tighter focus can be maintained on a few areas, without the distractions that come with any general population. Its not elitist; rather its maximizing the conversion of potential into 'kinetic' knowledge. I see CMPG as sort of the 'gifted and talented' class coming out of GH or other sources. This is not elitist either- its a place for serious discussion on topics that make most roll their eyes back or simply become defensive.

So with that, I am forever grateful to both places. GH for getting me started and providing the opportunity to pass on what I've learned, and here for being a more-serious forum to really explore some things with like-minded folk and without the distractions of having to defend ourselves to a broader audience.

they even grabbed some of my posts and even used my avatar agaist me.

Phil I read some of those posts yesterday and had a hard time holding back then, but if I saw anything making fun of your darling boy I'd have my sunglasses on and spraying bullets in full Arnold mode. So I don't even want to go back there and read such things. All I can say is my Dad was right when he used to say "the masses are asses"

Those last segments you posted recently are all the answer you need.

First, I'm sort of glad I did not have time last night to go to that site philmcneal is having problems with. Insulting one's children is utterly inexcusable - even in a lightly moderated forum, such members should be disaplined by the administrator.

The crude word for an extremely offensive person - a$$**** should be a label everyone would want to avoid. As much as that epithet could provoke a fight if you personally called someone that, why do so many people go out of their way to behave like one and are proud of it!? :rolleyes: That behavior goes on in many forums such as the one philmcneal has suffered, countless agressive drivers and road ragers, rudeness in other parts of our daily lifes.

This is why I love this place, and why my hat is off to Tom and Wayne for creating it- and hopefully it will stay troll-and-unrepentant-gearhead free!

GH is a good place- by virtue of its google rank and that its been around for a bit. Like most other things, some deals with the maybe-devil have been made, but life goes on, and it is still a resource. It is extremely frustrating there at times (hence why I come to the sanctuary here).

If you have not seen the classic movie High Noon, check it out or at least skim it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_noon). Thumbnail of the movie: A corrupt government lets four outlaws loose and they are coming back to town for more trouble. The town abandons the marshal - he (Gary Cooper) must face them alone. With a little help from his newlywed wife, all four outlaws are killed in the showdown. When the town comes to greet him, he leaves town with his wife for their honeymoon and throws his badge to the ground.

I get nausated by advocates of absolute free expression. Large parts of the internet resemble that town on High Noon with the outlaws. We have to deal with outlaws, trollers, troublemakers, etc....they are in the way of this anarchistic Utopia. I'm also sickened of the arguement that the alternative is some kind of Police State atmosphere.

Hate to say it, but the other place resembles that town with the outlaws returned and taking over the place....and taking pride in it. :rolleyes:

I don't realy agree. GreenHybrid is still pretty much okay. You have to consider its size. There are very few people that are trouble makers over there and most of the people are friendly. Of course being a moderator I would say something like that but it is true.

I agree that very few (two to be exact) were real trouble over there, but they were allowed to roam just like the outlaws on High Noon, and I found that very disturbing. The vast majority of members are OK.

There other think is to nudge some members that driving a hybrid does not condone "fuelish" practices such as crusing at 80mph.

good points everyone, my faith is restored again! There is no place like home!

Although funny though one thing I DID notice... most of the flames came from people who drive "fast cars" or "big cars" to begin with.

Smile on :) for their losses and not mine.

I posted there and nothing was shot at me.

The funny thing is most of them run aftermarket wheels and tires or dream to that effect. When somebody tells me there running hondas door frame psi I know there going to bust a rim on the ultra low profile tires. I see it happen all the time with these want to be tunner kids.

I think a few took it to heart and are silently looking into it phil. They wont make a stir with there peers.

I dont know if that was the best artical to use to bring the subject up with.

Just put on a thick skin. I have to remind myself of this daily. Folks like to whine on the net something awful. I get whined at all the time because of my veiwpoints and ways of looking at things. Folks will flame you and run you into the ground or call foul ,, or basicly you hurt my eyes and soul cause they dont like the way you phrased something, do something or so.

OO and get ready for more. As you futher your skillz and become better and better at this and your joy and pride grow. It will be seen by more and more. Someone in that thread may say something to the effect. Man hes a nut about this FE stuff. Aother will google for your post, mpg db's and another convert will be in the making. :)

haha i sure hope so man, i mean you never know if you get at least so many hypermilers under your belt maybe we can have nicer weather too!

I"m a true believer that this can fix a lot of air problems too. Burning the same amount of gas to cover TWICE the distance.

philmcneal
Senior Member

Phil, I took the time to read (All-The-Comments) on the other Forum. I have a "Thought" for you. This is from the {The Heart}. Stay way away from that Forum in the Future.

With Respect;

Terry

philmcneal
Senior Member

Phil, I took the time to read (All-The-Comments) on the other Forum. I have a "Thought" for you. This is from the {The Heart}. Stay way away from that Forum in the Future.

With Respect;

Terry


really why's that? hm do you think i'm too agressive? Wayne has recently shown me the light of better ways to convince people to change.

I still haven't given up hope... remember WE USED TO BE LIKE THEM.

There are haters because:

- jealously
- denial
- can't stand the fact we are better than them when it comes to this topic
- personal experience
- safety? (I've never experienced a high speed collion accident, only in parking lots lol... in fact all my accidents were in the parking lots! And I've cleaned them up legally like any responsible citizen would. Plus I still get my discounts ;)

Like Wayne said, give em time and they'll slowly realize. Better than not realizing it at all, we'll get them sooner or later until then we got ourselfs to worry about ;)

edit: after reading that big thread (69 posts yowzers) one more time.... ok your right Tiger hehe lets say I came back with a bloody nose!

edit: after reading that big thread (69 posts yowzers) one more time.... ok your right Tiger hehe lets say I came back with a bloody nose!



Actually, I read the thread a couple of times. I didn't think it was that bad, I believe you're getting to some of them. I also searched for "hybrid" and found some interesting entries.

Here and at GH you're "preaching to the choir", out there you could be converting some "infidels". :D

http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258611&page=5

like my much smoother approach? notice how i try my best not to poke at anyone.

Hi Phil:

___How about this? Take a day or three off from those “other” sites and let them simmer down a bit ...

___On another note, when you go to war, you jump in with both feet! You are far more welcome here then there given the responses ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I think Wayne is right. I've read through that thread and they just don't want to listen. Nothing you will say and no evidence you can give will satisfy someone (or a group of someones) who is dead set to argue against you.

I also think that they are confused by too much information all at once. One thing I have learned from technical writing and public speaking (engineering program at a liberal arts college...gotta love it) is that presentation is everything. If you don't "dumb it down" and present it in a sequential, logical manner, the message will be lost every time. What you are saying isn't bad, but I think it might be a little over their heads since this isn't a topic with which they are already familiar.

Something I would like to do is write a basic primer on hypermiling. It might not be as thorough as something that Wayne or Dan could come up with, but this wouldn't be up to that level. I'm thinking more in terms of the bare bones "Fuel Efficiency for Dummies" text that would get a newbie comfortable enough with the concepts and tecnique to get started and see some results. As a collective effort I think it would be very valuable. We could refer people like this to it as "Book 1" in the series, at which point the pros can start teaching the students from a somewhat higher level.

Hi Brick:

___Save it until after Hybridfest as I have something very similar to that already written but do not want to publish it until after the Hypermiling presentation this July. If you look at the glossary, they all come from the same paper. Hopefully easy enough to understand for the average soon to be hybrid and non-hybrid FE minded owner to grasp?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Ok i'll hang out here more often heh, help out those who came here.