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Just bought a 2001 Echo(5 speed). Pumped the tires to 60psi and I'm getting 50 + mpg around town and on a trip to Cambria(all freeway 500 miles). I haven't started doing FAS since I wanted to get a basline. The around town mileage of 50 without Fas really surprised me. Car idles at .1GPH! Love my SG.

My sister had a echo until a drunk driver totaled it in front of my house. She drove it like it was stolen and got around 40MPG. A great car and I wish you the best of luck with it. Show the hybrids people here your a force to be reckoned with :D

Have you calibrated your ScanGauge yet? 50mpg+ in an echo is absolutely possible for a skilled driver, but .1gph doesn't sound right. Maybe one of the Yaris guys can chime in to confirm?

Have you calibrated your ScanGauge yet? 50mpg+ in an echo is absolutely possible for a skilled driver, but .1gph doesn't sound right. Maybe one of the Yaris guys can chime in to confirm?
my yaris idles at .2GPH according to the SGII (it seems really low to me... 5 hours of idling on a gallon of gas???, but thats what the gauge says, and it's dialed in)

prezelboy,

If you can get 50mpg in an Echo, it may not be long before you are giving advise here! :)

Nonetheless, we are happy to help!

Hi Pretzelboy:

___50 would be pretty doable but the .1 gph at idle is the troubling item. The Echo uses the Prius block minus the atkinsonization and a Prius does not idle at .1 gph even after being warmed up and the pack is topped off while in N so as to keep it from auto shutting down IIRC. Tim, can you confirm the next time you have nothing else better to do then to let your Prius idle for a few seconds in N after S4 while watching the gph readout on your SG-II?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

... let your Prius idle for a few seconds in N ...

Wayne, he will blame you for the rest of your life, if his average FE decrease. You just cannot ask it to a hypermiler. ;)

PierreM

My Echo idles at .2 gph until the idle falls below 700 rpms....then it drops to .1.........Maybe this car was broken in right or it is special....but my 1st tank of gas was 46 mpg....and that had some spirited driving the 1st 100 miles or so. Even from a cold start it can get 50 mpg in a 3 mile drive.....of course I have to go a little slower than normal but no FAS....no other techniques other than hard tires. I had one of the 1st 2004 prius....but this echo is growing on me.

pretzelboy,

I'm curious... is your MPG measurement coming from an SG/SGII or the like, or your at-the-pump calculations?

46mpg was taken at the pump(483 miles on a tank)............the car is amazing....on the SGII I can get 48mpg without even doing much.......and if I try 51-52 mpg for any trip.....if I really try it can go higher but this involves slower speeds. I've seen as high as 59 mpg for a 4 mile trip home from store... but I was really taking it easy....all this with the ICE always on. The echo moves fairly well if taken to redline in 1st and 2nd.:D

Wayne, he will blame you for the rest of your life, if his average FE decrease.

Oh, I'll be fine. I'm told that my company's provider of mental health insurance is quite good. ;)

And to the OP, if you are pulling mid-40s over consecutive tanks based on pump calculations then odds are very good that you are seeing legit numbers. In which case, congrats! You must have some great driving conditions to pull off those short trip numbers.

I have an Aunt who has been getting 50+MPG in a manual Echo for several years. She works in and around The Great Smokey Mountains. I know she has never even heard of Hypermileing. Maybe it is down hill everywhere so goes!

My 2007 Corolla idles at .2 GPH also. I am getting 42 to 47 MPG tanks and have only had it since the first of August. My tires are at 37PSI. How much difference will higher pressures make for me.
Is the Echos great MPG from the 60 PSI tires?

Wayne, he will blame you for the rest of your life, if his average FE decrease. You just cannot ask it to a hypermiler. ;)

LOL, actually I think Wayne feels the pain more than anyone.

Why are we buying Hybrids????:(

Why are we buying Hybrids????:(


If you believe the media, it's for our Image :Banane38:

(Ooh, speaking of image, I missed talk like a Pirate Day, yesterday)

Why are we buying Hybrids????:(
You can get an idea from the data in:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/cmps_index.php?page=garage

My morning trip...starting temp 75......49.3 mpg...20mph avg...37 max....2240 max rpms....8.1 miles....188fwt max......

Basically I just shift up thru the gears not going over 1.2gph in any gear...and back out of the throttle in 5th to the point where she's almost idiling pulling the car(.4-.6gph). I've stayed away from P&G and all the other tricks so I could get a baseline. If I go for a longer drive it's way easier to get the same MPG and my speeds can go up to normal....and the freeway is the easiest of all. I can drive 65 and let the speed vary a bit and knock down low 50's....the car is fun to drive....and yes, people are wizzing by me on the side streets.

As for my 60psi tire pressure....I never ran the car lower so I don't know how much it is contributing to my mpg....I can tell you it rides a lot worse than at 32psi. I'll put it back in a few tanks and see.

Why are we buying Hybrids????:(

If you believe the media, it's for our Image :Banane38:

Yes, a pure ego-trip

PM

Hybrid burn cleaner, at least:(.

I bet these guys bordering on 50mpg in their Echos would be closing in on 70 or 80mpg in a Prius. We buy hybrids because they set the bar a bit higher. Or, in the case of the average driver, because they can provide the same results with less effort.

Hi All:

___Pretzelboy, do you have your SG-II calibrated for the 1.5 vs. a 1.0 or other such size? A tank or two worth of FE data would find out for sure but Toyota’s 1.5 SI-ICE’s do not idle at .1 gph.

___About the reason to own a hybrid. Tim said it perfectly. Usually a hybrid receives great FE without the work. For those that want to work for it or have ultra short commutes, they really have to be careful with their future automobile purchase as the Prius and/or HCH-II can be bested by a non-hybrid and especially a diesel but it will not be free or easy.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It's calibrated for the 1.5 engine....and when the idle drops below 700 rpm the SGII reads .1 gph...the car idles from 630 rpm to 680 rpm when fully warm(at least 10 minutes). I'm not an expert with the SGII but I went thru the basic calibration set up....maybe I need to learn more. My first tank was 46mpg(at pump)...so the next tank should be interesting. You do have to work at it to achieve these numbers on short drives....but thats kinda the challenge.

Tank #2 in the echo.....456 miles..9.8 gallons......46 mpg. N-ice-on is the only technique I used and slower speeds. This tank was all cold start 1-3 mile trips. 60 psi. The next tank will be 70psi. I really like the Echo....easy to drive and comfy for my 6'5" frame.

Nice job on that second tank!

Hi Pretzelboy:

___Yup, an excellent showing and nice job!

___About 60 to 70. The big increases come about from 30 through 50. After that, the increases fall off with increasing pressures. Above 60 and the ability for any more from that particular setup all but disappears. Not telling you not to but above 60 is really just spinning your wheels.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

If thats the case then I'm going back down to 50 psi....ride is a little stiff.

I forgot to add that I had 300lbs of ballast in the trunk during this last tank....and for the next few tanks.

Hybrid burn cleaner, at least:(.

How is a 50 MPG hybrid cleaner than a 50 MPG echo???

Given modern low sulfur fuels, particluate traps and catalysts, even a modern diesel is as 'clean' as a 50 MPG hybrid, depending upon what your jurisdiction considers pollution (tons of CO2, particulates, NOx, etc.).

The gross tonnage of pollutants is the same no matter what the vehicle is, MPG for MPG. Given the reports that our NJ Dyno emissions tests give, a well tuned vehicle is about as clean as can be in terms of CO and NOx and HCs, so the only issue is tonnage of CO2, which is the same whether the CO2 comes from a hybrid or other car.

Care to explain what you mean by the fact that a hybrid burns cleaner? Modern catalysis kind of makes that a non-issue from what Ive seen, unless Im missing something, like that the prius engine doesnt need EGR, catalyst, etc.

Thanks!

JMH

Hi JHM:

___A Tier II/Bin 2 or 3 SULEV AT-PZEV is far cleaner then a diesel anything available out of Europe and far cleaner then even a LEV based Echo or older last gen Civic here in the US. You can begin your own research on the EPA’s site wrt CO, NOx, PM and HC/NMOG emissions.

___GHG’s from a diesel are about 10% higher due to the higher C content of the fuel to begin with but the NOx and PM even with the latest NOx reducing CAT’s and DPF’s are not capable of being licensed on our shores due to the emissions of PM and NOx in g/mi. At least not yet that is ;)

___About the Prius or any PZEV, you need to read and learn a lot more then you have to date :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm sorry, but given a relatively standard system, such as a late model echo, I do not agree with that logic. I know, I know... I don't know enough, and need to read (and accept) the PZEV claims lock, stock and barrel so that I get smart... but hear me out.

If you obtain 50 MPG, regardless of automobile, regardless of ICE type, etc., the quantity of fuel utilized is set. IF you get 50 MPG, and drive 50 mi, youve used 1 gallon of gasoline.

Now, let's assume correct stoichiometry, burn, etc., and what do you get??? CO2 and H2O at a standard quantity. Doesnt matter what make, model, etc., that is standard chemistry.

Per my last emissions report, dyno tested, NJ state inspection station:
NOx: 49
HC: 3
CO%: 0.00
CO2%: 15.0
O2%: 0.0

Pretty clean emissions, and yes, while PZEVs have zero hydrocarbon emissions, they still will produce some NOx (20 mg/mile is the spec per SAE), and there is no escaping that there will always be a proporional amount of CO2 emitted to the amount of fuel burned, the quantity of which is the same, so long as we are running the assumption of a 50 MPG car going 50 miles.

So going back, compared to my real data presented above, an echo will likely have a cleaner burning and equally if not better catalyzed engine (the engine in the test shown above does NOT have an EGR, BTW) exhaust, higher combustive efficiency, reduced timing advance, etc. So given that my results had very minor HC, no CO, and not a lot of NOx, can we assume that the Echo would have similar or better tailpipe emissions??? Id think so.

Its ability to produce 50 MPG, if the combustive conditions were ideal would still be CO2+H2O, and given my data above, if we extrapolate to an Echo running cleaner and having a very good catalyst on it, we can be pretty sure that its emissions levels for NOx will be at or near the PZEV limit of 20 mg/mi, with, as you can see, no real HC or CO emissions to speak of.

Which brings me back to my question - given modern catalysis and low sulfur fuels, how is a 50 MPG hybrid any 'cleaner' than a 50 MPG echo, given that gross tonnage at a 50 MPG level is by definition the exact same amount???? And thats not considering the extra lifecycle costs of manufacturing and decommissioning a large battery pack from a hybrid car, which conveniently is never added into the calculations.

Not saying that anything is bad, wrong, etc. But I do maintain that given a properly running echo, has no significant difference in 'cleanness' than an equal-MPG hybrid. It is merely that we place those cars on a pedestal and assume superiorty which may or may not be the case.

Again a case of false economies... a 45-50 MPG modern diesel is a gross polluter, while a 12 MPG PZEV SUV is a 'clean air' vehicle. riiiiight...

And of course, let us add one caveat. PZEV vehicles have cleaner startup emissions due to a faster heatup/lightoff cycle of the catalyst. So, the apples to apples comparisson is not the case in startup, I am talking about warmed up steady-state operation, which hopefully is the bulk of the auto's use.

JMH

From a carbon standpoint I fully agree that a 50mpg Echo is every bit as good as a 50mpg Prius, HCH, Insight, spaceship, whatever. A gallon is a gallon is a gallon.

From an air quality standpoint I have to defer to data. Comparing a 2004 Prius and a 2004 Echo at www.fueleconomy.gov, the air quality score for the Echo is 2 out of 10 and the Prius scores 8 out of 10, with higher scores meaning cleaner overall emissions. The details are as follows (in g/mi):

2004 Prius-
NOx:0.03, NMOG: 0.055, CO: 2.1, PM: 0.01, HCHO: 0.004

2004 Echo-
NOx: 0.9, NMOG: 0.280, CO: 7.3, PM: 0.12, HCHO: 0.032

The numbers are slightly better all-around for cars sold in CARB states but the overall air pollution result is the same (9 for Prius, 2 for Echo.)

And for reference, here's Wayne's PZEV Accord (Overall air pollution score of 9.5):
NOX: 0.02, NMOG: 0.010, CO: 1.0, PM: 0.01, HCHO: 0.004

What this shows is that hydrocarbon emissions are certainly not the only difference. Also keep in mind that there has been steady improvement even over the last few years, and a Yaris does burn quite a bit cleaner than any '04 Echo. Still not as clean as the AT-PZEV cars, though.

Interestng total emissions numbers, appreciate the link.

But remember, those emissions specs are set up as maximum amount put out at 120-150k. I have not seen any data that indicates that the PZEV catalysts are necessarily any better at any conditions but startup (because they do have fast heatup/lightoff characteristics). If you have this then great... Id love to see it. Bt from what Ive seen PZEV is more about enhanced hydrocarbon traps (for sitting, non operating vehicles) and fast lightoff converters that have an enhanced warranty.

Any data on that????

For greenhouse emissions, the EPA site is apples to oranges, as it rates the echo at 33 comined, the prius at 46 combined. If there is data showing at steady state on a new catalyst that a PZEV scrubs the emissions better than an equivalent 3-way LEV catalyst, at steady state, similar age, etc., then great, otherwise Ill have my doubts... And if they are nearly identical beisdes startup and end of life, then the echo, if able to get 50 MPG should still be approximately as clean as the 50 MPG. Clean burn is only as important as the ability for the catalysis to do its job, given space velocity and other typical reactor design constraints.

Remember, end of life emissions, which is what these charts given at fueleconomy.gov presents is only a situation assuming that there was severe catalyst degradation and that the car nears being out of spec. Many people are able to keep their converters operating at top notch efficiency even after the 100k/120k/150k lifetime points, so the specifications can be somewhat irrelevant. Id love to see some real operational data showing the wo ICEs running at identical load points, specific fuel consumption, with identical ageing, operational temperatures, etc., etc. to have a real comparisson.

ALso remember that data can be spun excessively in so many ways... if cargo capacity is required and a prius for example wont cut it, then a 30 MPG CA emissions station wagon will beat two 50 MPG prius, because of less overall consumption of 30 vs. 50/2. However from a volume-specific standpoint, probably NOTHING out there can beat a prius, because though an echo, a HCH, or whatever else may be able to obtain similar fuel economy, the prius is more the size of a camry than it is the size of a corolla/accord/yaris/echo, so from a volumetric standpoint, it wins - perhaps real life considerations must be made too. And then one has to decide what is more important, greenhouse gasses or NOx. It IS a very complex problem, and a LOT of people do not necesariy agree that the CARB/similar metrics are necessarily the best ones... Similarly, if one guy carpools with two others in a "polluting" car, from five miles from his job, but three seperate people commute in their priuses, seperately from their sprawl homes thirty miles away from where they work, who is really the polluter???

Thanks for the info,

JMH

I've given you my comparative numbers, now it's your turn. And what are you trying to get at, exactly? It's tough to keep track of what you are really trying to argue.

No, there really is no speculation at all. Im asking questions, dont have the answer, people can say that they DONT KNOW, its OK. I take what I say from my experience in pratical catalysis and kinetics. Daily I spend my time designing the next generation of power systems, I have real, practical experience working with catalyzed fuel and gas processing equipment, testing and breaking same, to understand the science and technology of all things from advanced fuel processing to solid state energy conversion. I have reason to ask what I ask. Excuse me for not accepting what CARB and the EPA state lock, stock and barrel.

Point is that unless we have fully characterized the 'as new' catalytic performance of the echo vs. the prius, the data presented is not valid, as it states acceptable 120-150k mile performance. It still leaves the question open - what are the REAL differences, at steady state, hot catalyst with similar aging, between an echo geting 50 MPG and a prius getting 50 MPG.

I know it probably feels good to be part of the elite 'hybrid' club, but the question is still very valid, and unless a plausible answer (not acceptable end of life metrics) is presented, Ill assume that the answer is that we don't know, and this forum is not the place for such technical discourse.

This is fine, if it is the case, but there really is no reason to try to one up and/or disprove my credibility because I am asking RELEVANT questions to things that I DO NOT KNOW. If I am asking questions about certain things that I feel are relevant, its because Ive heard and earned things a certain way. If I have these insights (though they may be wrong, may be right), likely othrs do as well. Is a learning and inquisitive experience not smiled upon on here?

JMH

Hi JHM:

___An AT-PZEV or PZEV is not categorized by just the evap emissions alone. All PZEV’s are SULEV-2’s first and the evaporative emissions are so tight as to qualify for the PZEV moniker second. There are more then a few SULEV-2’s without PZEV certification.

___About an SULEV-2’s effluent. At load, they are into the undetectable range by some of the best effluent analyzers available to a state run emissions testing agency. A ULEV-2 or LEV-2’s HC/NMOG and NOx can be detected quite easily. The 120 – 150K emissions specs are minimums and the PZEV’s are so far below those minimums that under most normal driving conditions, there are a minimum of emissions other then water, N2 and CO2. This is not just about start and stop cycles but the efficiency of the SULEV-2 based CAT’s and the combustion process throughout the FTP and HWFET driving cycles. The SULEV-2 based CAT’s can convert up to 99.x% of the effluent to supposedly harmless CO2, water and N2. A LEV-2 or ULEV-2 cannot perform to that level under any load conditions.

___You can bring volumetric efficiency up but the fact remains, do you drive with 3 others in whatever you drive back and forth to work or just yourself like 95 + % of the drivers I see on the roadways in the Chicago area? Does the SULEV rated RXh make sense vs. the Prius for back and forth to work or across country duties? I praise those that travel with multiple passengers as there emissions drop on a per passenger basis and FE/passenger mile has increased dramatically but the same can be said for the HCH-II or Prius-II driver car pooling too. At work, I know 1 of the 3 Prius drivers that car pools whereas very few others are doing the same driving far less fuel efficient and far dirtier automobiles.

___WRT the elite hybrid club, there are far more non-hybrid PZEV’s sold then hybrid’s so why the elite comment? You choose your car and if it has PZEV emissions capability, would you purchase it from a state that offers it? I did and it was worth every penny of the $150 upcharge vs. the LEV-2 I could have purchased down the street for a similar discount. When it comes to your next new or used car purchase, I would hope for all our sakes that you consider a PZEV vs. an older LEV or newer LEV-2?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the information on conversion efficiencies of the PZEV/SULEV-2 vs other cats.

I do indeed carpool, part of the reason I paid a premium essentially for less space than I could out of town was the proximity to work and the ability to carpool. Id bike to work, but I have to go over a bridge tha doesnt allow bikes. Public transit doesnt take me where I need to go, so carpooling is the best option to save $$$ and gas.

again, I appreciate the info.

JMH