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Just wondering out loud....

Purchased a HCH2 and am getting what I consider to be pretty good FE - 62-28mpg on my daily commute. I am not complaining about the FE (2-3x better than last vehicle).

BUT - I have spent a lot of time and effort -
(1) trying not to have too much regen go back into the stack and
(2) trying not to use to much of the assist to drag down the stack
(3) keeping my speed reasonably slow at 55-60 max

SO - why wouldnt I have been better off just purchasing a non hybrid civic with a small engine, CVT and has autostop (if sold)? Basically a HCH2 without the battery or IMA.

I suppose it is close to impossible to avoid any decelerations/downhills that are regen opportunities, but if you were REALLY good at avoiding them, then why a hybrid?

Because when you can go into all electric mode for a while you can get great mileage. You are right in avoiding forced regens, but you probably could be getting better mileage if you used the battery and IMA system to let you coast more.

Your only other choice in the USA is the R-18 1.8L or the 2.0 Si K-series screaming meanie. :)

Even a R-18 in the hands of a skilled FE driver wont touch what a HCHII will do.

psy

Hi SpartyBrutus:

___The Europeans receive the 1.3 i-DSI right out of the HCH-II minus IMA but … the 0 - 60 times are in the 14.5 second range w/ a stick (16 with the Auto) and 31/48 Urban/Extra urban. Most here could get by but that is really pushing on the bottom end of what some of us would deem acceptable :(

___As Jeff mentioned, we do not receive that option here in the US :confused:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Thanks for the thoughts

- If you extend your coasts with electric mode, your FE is improved for that segment, but the SoC hit used isnt free - you have to waste kinetic energy or forced regen later to pay for it? If you are really good at not wasting KE, then inefficient(?) forced regens happen....

- Does having IMA somehow help with ICE/CVT efficiency by limiting how much the ICE has to rev up on accel/short upgrades?

- I see that there are really no wimpy 1.3L available in the US, but I do see where many skilled drivers on this site are pushing non hybrids to 50+ FE - or better than "typical HCH2 and Prius" drivers. If these skilled drivers were presented with the other benefits of the HCH2 (low internal friction losses, efficient ICE, LRR tires/bearings, auto cam adjustments etc.) but withough the IMA/battery weight, I wonder if they would be pushing 60+ FE?

Dont get me wrong, the HCH2 does great for me and recaptures most of the "KE mistakes" I make every day and pays me back with IMA assistance - mostly when needed.

It may be useful to think of Major and Minor Battery Events. Major would be forced regen, hard regen under braking, and hard assist. Minor would be the trickle regen that Insighters call hidden charging (10 amps maybe?) and lesser amounts of assist. I try to avoid Major events (except for regen under braking when I'm forced to slow down anyway) and accept the Minor ones.

Thinking of hybrids as a continuum from (a) ICE that basically can move the car fine with a small electric system to help out here and there, to (b) something like the Volt concept that moves electrically and has a tiny ICE to recharge the battery, we're still towards the (a) end of the scale. Thanks to battery limitations.

Take the Insight. I wouldn't want to drive it all the time on just its feeble 60hp ICE. With MIMA I can shut off assist/regen and when I do that acceleration is poor. But the battery drains rather quickly if assist is used. Yet the two systems do work well together to net some amazing mpg's, so it's probably somewhere in the middle between (a) and (b). Larger battery capacity (and additional electric impetus) as Mike Dabrowski has done definitely makes it easier to manage.

Hopefully better batteries will become available and things will shift towards (b). If that happens mpg tactics will change. I can already see this between the Subaru and the Insight. The Subaru has much more power so P&G is more do-able in it (and it helps the mpg a lot). For the life of me I can't P&G the Insight without getting into assist and running down the battery. I know there are people who can and I am in awe of them. So for me at least a better tactic is to work the terrain, FAS-ing on every downhill, easing along on the flats and slight downhills, and doing the best I can on the uphills. The problem here is that the electric steering runs down the battery during the FAS's so I'm constantly trying to slip in a bit of regen.

I wonder if when (if) we get to the Volt (b) end of the scale or with EV's P&G will become less helpful as a tool.

I also wonder about the Volt concept. Short-range while it is operating as an EV efficiency is good. But beyond battery-only range I suspect that burning fuel to run a generator to charge a battery to run a motor to move the vehicle may be less efficient overall than to have a slightly larger ICE that powers the vehicle directly, with electric assist as needed. Perhaps there will be two types of vehicles: EV's for everyday use (with booster stations for emergency recharges!) and then for longer trips people will have (or rent or Zipcar) something more like today's hybrids?

But beyond battery-only range I suspect that burning fuel to run a generator to charge a battery to run a motor to move the vehicle may be less efficient overall than to have a slightly larger ICE that powers the vehicle directly, with electric assist as needed.

Oh, don't worry about that, by the time it actually hits showrooms, it'll have a V8...

-Gren

Hybrid schmybrid, you need a 1.3 carburated 82-83 Civic 1300FE! Oh how I wish I could lay my hands on one of these again. I bet hypermiling it would get phenomenal results. I drove mine like a crazy kid and still managed 43-45 on a weekly basis. Trip high was 57.

I've been asking myself the same question lately as I've seen folks with non-hybrid cars getting the same mpg as hybrids. Because of the terrain where I live I have to be vigilant in how I use the hybrid technology. Lots of electro-glide without going into EV mode, is what keeps my SOC and MPG up where they belong. The main reason for the HCH2 "only" getting mpg's in the 50's is simply its size and weight. It's a fairly large and heavy car compared to the others out there. In the meanwhile, keep up the good fight and save that petrol! :flag:

Only thing I don't miss about the carburetor was vacuum hose leaks. :rolleyes:

But yea, they were so much better for FE than what we have now. :(

I think that the 1.3 iDSI alone would make the Civic a bit of a dog, but I would have taken it in a heart beat if stuffed into a Fit with stick and an adequately tall final drive ratio for ~$15,000. I bet my highway FE in that would beat-out the Prius given the possibility of a true FAS. City FE might be inferior but someone with the skills would be in great shape. A/C would kill that little engine, though.

SO - why wouldnt I have been better off just purchasing a non hybrid civic with a small engine, CVT and has autostop (if sold)? Basically a HCH2 without the battery or IMA.
Hey if you really want paradoxical, just remember that basic hypermiling tries to avoid using the two most fundamental features of a car – the accelerator and the brake. :D

Hi Tarabell -

Seems like HCH2 hypermiling also tries to avoid the use of the IMA assist wherever possible.

Well back to reality - decelleration, braking, stops, downhills etc all will happen and if the IMA regen/assist help out a little, no problem (happy problems).

Only thing I don't miss about the carburetor was vacuum hose leaks. :rolleyes:

But yea, they were so much better for FE than what we have now. :(

I don't miss getting carbs rebuilt.