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Hi all. I found the site today after some internet searching on hybrid cars. Glad to be here.
I'm not sure where to ask this next question, so I'll start here.
I'm down to the last day or two of making a decision on a more fuel efficient company car. I was able to talk my boss into replacing my company car (suburban) with something much more sensible. Time is critical because my boss has a history of changing his mind. He's already been crunching numbers and questioning me on how I can justify the extra cost of a hybrid or other high mileage car versus just buying gas for the suburban. I need some help! So... if you could pick any car (within reason), what would you buy?
I have a family of seven and live in Michigan on a road at the top of a 12% grade, hence the 4x4 suburban. 2 of my kids are grown and driving their own cars, so I only haul around 3 typically. We have my wife's Toyota Sienna when we need it. Being one of the owners of a environmental drilling company, I can always borrow a 4x4 pickup to drive home during blizzards so factor all that into your advice.
So far I've looked at Honda Civic, 4 cyl. Accord stick (my fav to drive) and a Civic Hybrid. I'm trying to get a look at and test drive a Prius, but no luck so far. None in stock and none available for a month or so. The wait would be dangerous with my boss's habit of changing his mind. My toyota dealer told me today that a month ago they had 20 Prius hybrids in stock and had a rebate on them and still couldn't sell them. Amazing what $3.79 gas will do to change people's minds (including mine).
Thanks in advance.
Joe

Don't know if this helps but if you could test drive a Ford Escape Hybrid - it would be like a heavy Prius...and get over 30mpg. Worst case you will get 45mpg in a Prius, although tips here you probably could get 55-60, better when you commute to work.

Hope that helps a little.

Also, could you test drive a hybrid Camery? It would give you an idea of what a Prius is like, but again heavier.

Hi Tnnsman7:

___Boy I could go on for hours about your choices but am out of time today. For your choice and boss, make sure you read the article section. I wrote two articles on the FEH vs. the non-hybrid Escape and the Camry LE vs. Camry Hybrid head to head. I could go on and on about the Yaris, Fit, Corolla, Civic, HCH-II, Prius-II, non-hybrid Accord, (I love my Accord but I push it to its limits and I am not sure anyone other then a scant few of us would take it that far) plus the Escape, FEH, Ranger, HiHy and a few others … A few more details and I might be able to help you out even more after work tonight.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I test drove a used (2005) Prius tonight, so now I've at least seen and driven one.
Our goal for our business would be to get as many mpg as we can, so that kind of rules out the Accord, Camry, Escape and other hybrids I think. We'll still have the suburban when bigger passenger or cargo capacity is needed. You can't give them away from what I've been told so we're stuck with it.
My initial impressions from driving both the civic hybrid and prius today are these:
I like the way the civic drove a little better. It seemed to have a little smoother drive, but that could have been because it was brand new and the prius was 2 years old with 24,000 miles. The Prius would work better for me since it's a hatchback and the seats fold down when I do have to haul smaller things for work or home. I also like it's controls and display better. The Prius was more money, something else to consider.
I'm getting ahead of myself a little, since I'm still not convinced (or I should say my boss isn't convinced) that either hybrid is worth the extra cost over a std. engine similar vehicle.

There will some tax breaks for hybrids, although the ones for Toyota are being phased out.

I was told the Prius gets a $750 tax break until October. I don't know about the Civic.

Hi Tnnsman7:

___The following might help?

Fed, State, and Corporate hybrid purchase incentives. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow. (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/articles/t-fed-state-and-corporate-hybrid-purchase-incentives-yesterday-today-and-tomorrow-1924.html)

___With your narrowing of the vehicles to the Prius-II or HCH-II, what does your normal drive consist of? If there is a lot of stop and go in traffic or inner city, the Prius will eat anything alive. If there is a lot of highway, the HCH-II will eek out a touch more then the Prius II in the mid-speed ranges. At 65 - 70 type speeds, expect the low to mid 40’s over a lifetime from each.

___The tool carrying cap of the Prius-II is far and away the better choice over the HCH-II. The HCH-II handles better and I believe quieter although it has been a while since I have been behind the windscreen of an HCH-II. Msantos owns both and could answer just about anything you want to know about each …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I live and work out in the country, so my driving is in country road conditions. 2 lane roads with 55 mph limit and few stop lights or signs. Fairly hilly (rollers) in my area. 8 miles from my house to my office. About the same to the bank and bookkeeper which I run to several times a week. I average about 30,000 miles per year and spend very little time on interstates. Lots of short trips obviously. I average about 14 mpg with my suburban. Lots of room for improvement.

30,000 miles at 14 MPG? Holy shiznit!

That is an average of 178.5 gallons per month. Assuming gasoline in your area is $3.50/gallon that comes out to $625/month spent on gasoline alone!

Let's assume a measly 50 MPG with a Prius, which anyone can get with your conditions. That would come out to 50 gallons per month at a cost of $175/month.

$625 - $175 = $450 left over for a car payment. Keep in mind this does not take into account the repairs the Suburban has faced, is facing or will face soon.

Assuming an 11% used car loan for 60 months, a car valued at $20,000 (which would get you a slightly used Prius) would run $434/month.

Or you could go for a brand-spanking new Toyota Yaris liftback for around $13,500, which at 8% for 60 months comes out to just $274/month.

By the way, you do not need 4WD for snow. I have one of the nastiest mountain commutes in the country and I get by just fine with a small car and FWD. Conversely, my coworker with a 4x4 Exploder landed himself in a ditch last month on the same drive.

I'm totally biased, but I love the Prius. Few things to consider on ride. Bring a tire gauge when you check out the cars. If you put the tires in a Prius at 25 psi, the thing drives like a Cadillac (but the MPG is bad).

Now there are some threads (Ericbecky?) about a Civic's highway mileage being really high with little to no help other than cruise control. Best highway mileage I can consistantly hold is about 60, although I think there are others hear that can keep a prius at 55mph in the 65mpg rang.

So, Get the Prius... :D

11011011

Welcome, & let me add my voice (& personal experience :)) to those who are recommending the FEH!

I've had mine for almost 2 1/2 years, & it continues to surprise me :):) Before I really knew what I was doing (read: driving it like every other car I've had), the mileage was everything the (old) EPA ratings promised. When it didn't stop at 36mpg, I started looking for ways to keep it going up - then I found CleanMPG, & it's still climbing :):):) I'm still recovering from the hit that FE takes in the cold weather, but with the grille blocked & the engine block heater plugged in every night, my average still only dropped to 38.3mpg. And since the warmer weather (finally) came to stay, my tanks have been upwards of 40mpg & my average should climb above 40mpg before HybridFest2007 in July.

The front-wheel drive handles winter roads with no problems, & that same FWD means that there's no lump in the middle of the back-seat floor, so 3 adults can (& have!) fit comfortably in the back seat. And my 6'+ husband is comfortable in it, too. Plenty of room for luggage, groceries, or whatever in the back as well.

And that is my (not completely) unbiased opinion ;)

Well, I told you I needed help fast... I bought a 2007 Civic hybrid this morning. I get it either tomorrow or Monday. It all came down to money doing the talking. This is a company car remember. The civic ended up about $2500 cheaper than the Prius, both equipped about the same. A dealer discount by the Honda dealer and larger tax credit made up most of the difference. I liked the looks of the Civic, and how it drives better than the Prius. I think I'll be happy with my choice.
Now I just need to learn how to drive it, like a hypermiler that is.

Thanks to Wayne for having me contact Msantos, who's had both cars. His advice helped me decide on the Honda.

Joe

Congratulations on the purchase. You will love it, and your boss will also when he sees what you do with it.

While the Prius is 2nd to none on urban commutes, the HCH II has a dash that is even better than my Insight, and I'm infatuated with it! The upper deck of the dash is like a shaded "heads up" on the windshield display - effortless to see.

All your company will need to justify the cost is one well placed hurricane in the GOM or a few pounds of explosives and a camel in Saudi Arabia. Don't do your cost benefit analysis using $3/gallon. Do it using $6 accompanied by shortages. We'll see it in the next couple years if not sooner. Over the next decade shoratges and extremely expensive gas will be the rule, not the exception.

I hope for the sake of my business that fuel doesn't go that high. I should say I hope for the sake of us all it doesn't. It will kill our fragile economy and stock market if it does. If fuel prices go that high, have the last one to leave Michigan shut out the lights. This state is waaaaaay too dependent on the fate of American built autos and parts. After watching that video about the electric cars Ford built that they took back and wanted to crush, I'm not holding out much hope for this state. GM did the same thing with their electric car if I remember right, and they did crush theirs.

Well, everyone in the world that can produce oil is producing at capacity right now so, basically, all you have to hope for in order to keep prices where they are is:

1. No increase in future demand for oil
2. More new mega discoveries, though we haven't had one since the 60s
3. No new wars or instability in the Middle east or other oil exporting regions, like, say, Nigeria
4. No hurricanes in the Golf of Mexico
5. A halt in the decline rates of the US, the North Sea, the GOM, the North Slope, Venezuela, Iran
6. Iraq becoming stable so it can produce at potential
7. A bunch of other extremly unlikely things to occur

As long as all that happens, you don't really need to worry. This graph of Saudi Production doesn't look good, though. As Matt Simmons has said, "If it turns out that Saudi Arabia has peaked, then catagorically the world has peaked."

http://www.theoildrum.com/files/ksa_summary.png

Hi Renfield:

___According to my reads, we have already peaked world wide … Middle of last year in fact :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne