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For the second time i used a lot of neutral coast gliding and got less than the avg i was getting before ( 46.6 after 6 weeks in a row of 50 plus):mad:. maybe the car does not like neutral coast... anyone has experience this..???? that got me from an expected 890 miles for the tank to about 820...:mad:

For the second time i used a lot of neutral coast gliding and got less than the avg i was getting before ( 46.6 after 6 weeks in a row of 50 plus):mad:. maybe the car does not like neutral coast... anyone has experience this..???? that got me from an expected 890 miles for the tank to about 820...:mad:

I don't have a FFH, but neutral coast eliminates fuel-cut in my FEH. I only use "N" coasting in EV! good luck

GaryG

Ditto what Gary said about fuel cut and glides in EV. Do note that when coasting in Neutral if you are over 38mph or so there is some draw on the high voltage battery which can be seen on the battery gauge. This tells me that the car is operating in a similar manner to the Prius when it is in warp stealth — ie, it is using some power to spin the engine (with the injectors off) in order to keep the mgset RPM within safe limits.

I would not recommend using neutral above the 47mph EV limit in the FFH.

That is why i coast in N going downhill... got the HVB up to 80% SOC and for some reason the batt does not charge beyond that.. so i used the N glide to get it discharged but i'm already in DFCO.. so it means that the injectors will go on again if i shift to N????

Yes — if you are over 47mph and in N the injectors will be on.

ok, thanks for the info...:) i thought i was doing it right.... :(

I believe in the FFH, in "N" the ICE will not start to charge the HVB. It will start over 47 mph in "N" or "D". for MG1 speed limits. If you are in "N" below 47 and need quick power the ICE will not start so there is a little hazard in being in "N". You can accomplish almost the same as "N" below 47 mph by modulating the accelerator pedal so there are no "Up" or "Down" green arrows in the HVB gauge.

I'm not sure what you mean by stating the ICE not starting if you are in neutral below 47mph is hazardous? If it did start, how would that be any different? You need it in drive to do you any good...

That's true. Putting it in "N" requires less attention as you don't have to null out the HVB arrows but you have to mechanically move the shift to "D" to get anything to happen. I worry about doing things many times more often then they may be designed to do. The HVB management system seems very sophisticated and foolproof. Feathering the pedal to null the arrows is only software and electronics and pedal and likewise reduces the EV cycle losses. I know a retired Ford engineer and he acknowledges the car companies reticence to comment on what they consider to be proprietary design philosophies. An enormous amount of design resources has been going into these hybrids for over ten years. Are there still statutes that prohibit the design of "freewheeling" coasting in vehicles? I believe there were many years ago. The coasting drag of all these hybrids is software produced and I wonder when it might end as we see the effects in trying to achieve mpgs above 50+.

At this point the shifter is nothing other than a big electrical multimode switch. I'm not too concerned about "wearing it out."

At this point the shifter is nothing other than a big electrical multimode switch. I'm not too concerned about "wearing it out."

I shifted my '05 FEH so much, my right hand is trained to rest on the shifters of every thing I own and drive, including my boat and riding lawn mower. No problems so far.

GaryG

I shifted my '05 FEH so much, my right hand is trained to rest on the shifters of every thing I own and drive, including my boat and riding lawn mower. No problems so far.

GaryG
Well you're kind of the canary in the coal mine. Of course manual shifters were designed for a lot of use but automatics might have been designed for one operation per drive cycle or a little more. They may be durable but it's still a mechanical lever operating a switch. Even in the Prius it's a lever. If the switches were proximity types, that would be better. I've had even magnetically operated solid state Hall effect proximity switches fail in a boat knotmeter sender because the magnet in the paddle wheel weakened. My TV universal remote is about due for another dis assembly and cleaning. Each time I break a plastic closure tab.
So it goes.

A cautionary note; a FFH owner was experimenting with doing a little hypermiling down Appalachian hills in "N". It started using about a quart every 1000-2000 miles. The practice was stopped and consumption returned to nil. It's unclear how that operation could have caused that. In the FFH, the ICE always "runs" over 47 mph even in "N". Perhaps there is some software differences that cause different throttle and/or injector settings. The FFH normally doesn't burn 1/2 qt. in 10,000 mile oil change intervals so sucking oil past the rings would seem strange.

Personally, I wouldn't head down anything labeled "Appalachian" in N... no matter what vehicle I was in at the time.

The reference was to eastern mountains not western.

I grew up in the Piedmont of SC... I stand by my statement.

As far as i remember, if you get to electric mode and shift to N, the HVB will discharge and the ICE will not turn on in any situation unless you shift out of N... i'm i wrong????

That is true in the Prius -- but not in the FFH. It will turn on the engine as soon as you exceed 47mph. Note that above 38mph your FFH will do the same thing the Prius does in Warp Stealth -- it uses the HV battery to turn the engine without the injectors on to keep the motor RPM below its safety threshold... even in N. Once over 47mph though it turns the engine on regardless of transmission lever location.

The FFH does not turn the ICE until above 47 mph, not 38. If you are in N coasting downhill and go over 47, the ICE is turned by MG1 and probably the injectors are off because the ICE remains at idle rpm and will not respond to the accelerator pedal and the HVB shows discharge and no regen braking is available. In D in a downhill coast, the ICE starts over 47, The HVB shows charging and regen is available until the HVB fills up.

Lolder, please re-read my post. I didn't say the engine fired up above 38mph -- I said that the car spins the engine with the injectors off while in N (or EV) at speeds between 38 and 47mph. The engine is always burning gas (unless in DFCO) if the car is over 47mph and you'll find you can't rev the engine in N no matter what speed -- the accelerator is ignored.

All true but the ICE doesn't turn above 38; it's 47 mph. No Dash Mode display or sensation including the Engineering Test Mode page that displays RPM show the ICE turning between 38 and 47.

Take a look at the electric usage. You'll see a drain arrow appear when coasting in N above 38mph or so. To back that up, you'll find that the SoC drops quite a bit faster at higher speed glides in N as well. The RPM sensor is only active when the engine is actually using fuel.

There's no drain arrow above 38 in D, it's charge. The RPM gauge in "Enlighten" dash mode appears and disappears but the RPM display in the Engineering Test Mode ETM ( enterred by holding RESET and SET-UP for five seconds after turning key on ) page ( hit RESET five times for page with tachometer ) is active all the time and can show zero and briefly even some rpms between 0 and 1000 as the ICE stops and starts. There is no physical feeling that the ICE is ever turned below 47 and I can feel it when it is turned above 47 in "N". The car is smooth but not that smooth. The ETM tachometer page shows 0 rpm below 47 mph and about 1000 rpm above 47 in N with a slight discharge arrow. Pressing the accelerator pedal amply then yields a slight charge arrow and about 1150 rpm so the injectors are not completely cut off even then. The state of charge increases with all D coasts above about 25 mph unless there's very heavy AC load. The state of charge does drop coasting in "N" above 47 and the ICE is apparently being electrically turned then. You are certainly a senior member of these forums but are you basing the FFH operation on the FEH? My FFH was built 5/09 and I have owned it since 7/09.

Okay, let me recap here (again, READ my posts instead of skimming). We purchased a FFH for my wife in April of 2010. I don't now nor have I ever owned an FEH, though I have driven one twice. My statements are based on actual experience, not associations with another vehicle.

We have been speaking of coasting in N for the entire thread and I've been very careful to qualify my statements. When coasting in neutral between the speeds of 38mph and 47mph (assuming the car is warmed up enough that the car is EV capable in this speed range) the engine will be off but turning via electric power. You can see it as a power drain on the SoC gauge. The RPM gauge only reports something greater than zero when the engine is actually consuming fuel.

Above 47mph the only way you can get the engine to not use fuel is to enter DFCO. There is no engine off glide of any sort above 47mph. Once again, the RPM gauge only shows anything other than zero when gas is being consumed. Because of this design choice there is no such thing as Warp Stealth (the mode in Toyota hybrids above normal EV range) in the FFH (or the FEH either, for that matter).

I've read a lot of your posts and you are undoubtedly an authority and I see you've had an Insight also. If you look at the Tachometer page in the Engineering Test Mode, it displays RPM continuously at about a twice per second rate from 0 to max. It may even show a RPM between 0 and 1000 when the ICE is stopping or starting when the fuel is always cut off. The "Enlighten" dash display shows a coarse RPM gauge when the ICE is running and only an EV gauge when the ICE is OFF. I see no indication including a discharge arrow on the HVB gauge that indicates the ICE is turning between 38 and 47 in N or D.

I've read a lot of your posts and you are undoubtedly an authority and I see you've had an Insight also. If you look at the Tachometer page in the Engineering Test Mode, it displays RPM continuously at about a twice per second rate from 0 to max. It may even show a RPM between 0 and 1000 when the ICE is stopping or starting when the fuel is always cut off. The "Enlighten" dash display shows a coarse RPM gauge when the ICE is running and only an EV gauge when the ICE is OFF. I see no indication including a discharge arrow on the HVB gauge that indicates the ICE is turning between 38 and 47 in N or D.

You must not have a SGII programmed to read SoC in your FFH. Any time you are in "N" and EV, with the key On, the HV battery is discharging. The reason it's discharging at a fairly quick rate is because "N" does not provide any regen with MG2, and the battery is discharging while running the 12V loads. You may not see the arrows on the OEM gauges, but you will see the SoC dropping on a SG11 in 10th's of one percent. My '09 FEH does not go EV above 40 mph, so it does not have the programming to protect the electric motors by spinning the engine like Sean is talking about with MG1.

From what Wayne Gerde has reported from his reviews of the '10 FFH, it uses much more battery SoC at 47mph in EV than below what I think I read at 40mph. Now I'm hearing Sean say it's 38mph and I have no reason to disagree. If this is the case, the only additional power lost could be from MG1 spinning the engine to protect the electric motors from over RPM damage. This makes perfectly good sense to me.

GaryG

I misspoke. In N coasting below 47 there is discharge for the reasons you state, not because it is spinning the ICE. The ICE is NOT turning below 47 mph. The RPM limit for MG1 occurs at a road speed of 47 mph. In D coasting, it is charging above and below 47 mph, ICE off or on. The FFH uses more SOC at 47 in N because it is spinning the ICE.

In the FFH, there is an Engineering Test Mode ( ETM ) displayable on the right side of the panel enabled by holding ReSet and Set-Up buttons on the steering wheel for five seconds while turning key to start. It has 10 separate pages of various digital readings scrollable by pressing the ReSet button. For instance, fuel level is displayed to three places ( .750 = 3/4 ). Page 5 has Tachometer with 4 digital places ( 1243 RPM eg. ). It is active all the time on page 5 of the ETM and displays 0000 when the ICE is off. I'm pretty sure it is driven by the crankshaft position sensor, not the fuel computer. It shows 0000 rpm below 47 mph. Check it out
The Forum at Fordfusionforum.com has been pretty quiet lately as there are very few being sold because of Japan parts problems ( and new competition ) so there are few newbies and almost no problems. 2012 production has apparently not started yet and there are few on dealers lots.

Ok, i'm getting a little confused here... so it is better to coast in gear above 47mph and coast in N below 47mph in ev mode...:)

Coasting in N below 47 stops the HVB charging due to non-braking programmed regen drag so you are eliminating those round trip EV cycle losses. But, you won't recoup regen braking energy unless you remember to go to D before you brake. I think that's cumbersome. You can coast in D below 47 mph in EV and modulate the accelerator pedal so that neither the Up or Down arrows appear in the HVB gauge. This reduces the EV cycle looses almost as much as the use of N. This is easier than you might think. Because of the round trip generator-charge-discharge-motor EV cycle losses, EV is useful only in three situations: acceleration assist of the lower HP Atkinson ICE, regenerative braking, low power cruising below about 35 mph. where the ICE efficiency drops off and cycling between EV and ICE is more efficient. The latter case can also use P & G and null the arrows for further gains. This is the closest to old manual P & G and can be done in D simply with pedal movement. All these methods cause varying degrees of road distraction. Use of N frequently will interfere with the Ford HVB management plan. That gives me pause to use it.

I'll see if I can get a shot of the arrows at some point.

OK, got it... have to try and see if any gains... quick question.. does the curb weight of the car includes the weight of the fuel in the tank? Or do I have to add to get the real weight of the car?..

Full fuel and oil, no passengers or cargo.

OK thanks, so my avg weight for the car is 3900 pounds ( weight of 150 pounds + 30 additional) and losing a gal and a half every normal week...:)

I had a chance to drive the wife's FFH to Church and back tonight (Choir practice :p) so I got the phone camera fired up and ready to shoot.

Here's a shot of the drain arrow while in a N glide. I watched more carefully and the faint outline of the drain arrow is visible all the way down to 35mph, then it disappears:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/594/FFH_neutral_glide_.jpg
(Note selector in N, very low ACC load due to only fan on 1, drain arrow on SoC gauge, and speed over 40mph)

For this reason, I prefer to keep speeds at 34mph or lower, but that isn't always possible. The SoC will decrease noticeably faster when using higher speed glides in neutral. Still, that can be counteracted by proper management of the SoC using regen strategically and paying attention to the pulse rates with P&G. I'll describe my techniques below and then share the results from tonight's driving. I didn't use AC or the stereo, the windows were all rolled up, and I had the vent fan set to 1.

Firstly, on the highway I don't use glides in N. They may help in some areas but in most cases I believe the better approach is simple DWL. I typically manage low 50's in warm weather at speeds between 55 and 60mph. As mentioned earlier, there is no Warp Stealth or Warp Neutral (terms Prius drivers will be familiar with).

Second, manage the SoC by avoiding electrical assist when the engine is on. Use a pedal "blip" to get the engine started when you want to pulse -- this will avoid the extra drain of running purely electric for a short stretch and then smoothing the engine start. It is nice programming and certainly pleasant to experience but it uses power unnecessarily. Once the engine is started you can start out with a slightly heavier pulse because the spin up will get engine RPM up higher than you actually need it, but back off after the initial press. The idea here is to pulse with no drain or charge arrows. On engine start you will almost always see at least a brief moment of charging as the RPM drops after the "blip" -- use it for that extra power off the start. Using P&G with N glides at 34mph and below I see minimal deviation of the SoC doing this.

Thirdly, when using N I pulse to speed (without arrows if possible) then let my foot off the accelerator; as soon as the red bar on the PWR meter meets the top of the EV demarcation line I shift to N. The engine will cut off if everything is warmed up and you simply throw the lever into N at 47mph or lower while releasing the pedal at the same time but it will idle for a few seconds. Waiting for it to DFCO down to the EV PWR level cuts the fuel use and gets instant engine off when you shift.

Fourthly, if you have to use steady state speeds, use the lowest pedal pressure needed to maintain speed above 47mph and at speeds under that, try to park the PWR meter's red bar right on top of the EV demarcation line while maintaining speed. This will raise your instant FE and also add some charge to your SoC.

How does all of this work in the real world? I took my favorite through town route to Church and back this evening. The way there has a slight net elevation gain with a truly annoying and quite tall hill towards the end. The route there has a steeper incline than coming back so it is a bigger hit when going to Church. I also had heavier traffic on the way in (rush hour, in fact) throwing a monkey wrench into light timing with a large amount of unpredictable cross traffic with bad sight lines. Here's the result for that trip out:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/594/FFH_home_to_Church_81F.jpg
(60.1mpg over 16.6mi at 81F, fan on 1)

Coming back the traffic was lighter and the route has a slight elevation loss, but the temperature was lower and I now had the headlights on (fan still on 1). Net SoC usage for the round trip was zero ending at 50% per the in-dash gauge. What did it look like?

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/594/FFH_maxed_20min_bars.jpg

The average at the top right is actually the tank average -- this is the first time I've driven on this tank and it was at 41.3mpg when I left the house (my wife really doesn't hypermile so I'm quite happy with her mileage). You can see I pulled it up 1.1mpg over the round trip. You can also see 9 of the 10 2min bars maxed out with the 10th just barely under the 60mpg mark. SoC is nicely at 50% (where it was when I left the house). Here's the average for that trip:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/594/FFH_Church_to_home_76F.jpg
(71.5mpg over 16.6mi at 76F)

There was no appreciable wind for either trip. Round trip ends up calculating out to 65.3mpg over 33.2mi.

Hopefully the above is of some use to other FFH drivers.

Nice post. As you said, the secret to getting into the 60's and 70's mpg at lower speeds is avoid the charge-discharge arrows in P & G. You can see how the demo in 2008 got 81 mpg. The general rule to avoid EV mode ( and eliminate those losses ) is evident here.

Sean, i checked and the ffh is rated at 39 combined so yes your wife is indeed a hypermiler even if she doesn't try to be one.

In a recent test over an eight mile level road going both ways and AC off, I got 79 mpg. using P and G in "D" between 25 and 35 mph keeping the HVB arrows off. With CC on on a previous test I got 64 mpg. cycling between ICE and EV at about a 50 % duty cycle at 30 mph. Starting and ending vehicle states were the same in all tests. Somebody might be able to calculate EV cycle efficiency from that data. I've previously read it was 70 %. Off hand it looks to be 81 %, from this single point data. Don't hold EV mode in such high esteem, it's a convenience.

I tried that this week and (for me) is really hard to get the arrows to not show up, it did get me to the low to mid 50's instant MPG at 30 to 40 MPH range, but the arrows were present almost all the time, so, how do you do that????????:confused::confused:

In a recent test over an eight mile level road going both ways and AC off, I got 79 mpg. using P and G in "D" between 25 and 35 mph keeping the HVB arrows off. With CC on on a previous test I got 64 mpg. cycling between ICE and EV at about a 50 % duty cycle at 30 mph. Starting and ending vehicle states were the same in all tests. Somebody might be able to calculate EV cycle efficiency from that data. I've previously read it was 70 %. Off hand it looks to be 81 %, from this single point data. Don't hold EV mode in such high esteem, it's a convenience.

I hypermile my '09 FEH totally different using EV and pulsing with a heavy charge. After 4 or 5 P&G segments, the battery SoC is up around 45 - 46% when I go EV at around 30mph and set the CC. I burn the SoC down to ~43.3% and then do a "N" glide to as low as 20mph depending on any traffic behind me. The '09 FEH is good for 75 - 80mpg using this technique. My acceleration rate is between 12 - 15mpg during my pulse. I'm limited to the roads that have these speed limits and traffic for ideal conditions, but can still pull tanks over 60mpg.

GaryG

Hi, Gary – I've tried your technique to good effect but find it harder to build a high SoC in the FFH than I was able to in Debbie's '05 FEH. At some point I've got to get a ScanGauge into that car – it's hard to even track individual segments in the FFH because my wife uses the segment average display for her tank average. :p

I'll try it again the next time I drive it and see if I can build the SoC better by keeping the overall level lower. It definitely charges harder below half on the display.

I tried that this week and (for me) is really hard to get the arrows to not show up, it did get me to the low to mid 50's instant MPG at 30 to 40 MPH range, but the arrows were present almost all the time, so, how do you do that????????:confused::confused:
Let's say you accelerate with the ICE to 40 mph. When you release all the pedal pressure, it pops into EV with the charge UP arrow. Push slightly on the pedal to put the UP arrow out but not enough to show the discharge DOWN arrow. You are then coasting. There's a little learning curve and it does distract your attention from the road so be cautious. I've learned to use constant pedal pressure as a rule in most driving and acceleration. It makes it easier for the computer to run the ICE most efficiently.
About the SOC; the computer usually wants it in the middle of the gauge which is probably about 50 %. A cold ICE warmup will let it go higher as will multiple regen stops. Otherwise it won't go higher. AS soon as it gets above half, it goes to the negative split power mode in cruise to get the HVB back to 50 % SOC. The FFH must be different from early FEH's.

Tried a little that way of coasting and it really works, for my daily conmute it is a bit hard to do it but I saw a 2 MPG increase on the trip avg when I tried, it was short, but I was able to "save" a bit of batt power @ the hwy and use it on the final (city) portion of the conmute.. :) :)

Gary, I did try your technique again and saw an improvement for the conditions -- it appears that keeping the SoC low enough to allow a charge during pulses puts the engine into a more efficient load band.