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Had our other car in the shop (independent mechanic) for routine service and when I went to pick it up there was a 2003 HCH in there with the hood up. So I crossed my fingers and asked the mechanic if he worked on those transmissions, because mine was juddering. He said he only did the regular Civic stuff, not the CVT or battery. Then he related how the HCH in his shop had also had a judder problem (don't they all?) and how the owner had dropped it off at the service department of the less reputable of our two less than stellar local Honda dealerships to have the CVT repaired, with the oral promise that it would cost around $3000 to fix. She did this even after my mechanic had warned her not to take it there unless they put the full repair price in writing. Sure enough, they later told her they wanted another $1000 to finish the work, and if she didn't want to pay that, she could send over a tow truck to haul her now disassembled vehicle away.

I still can't decide which is the worse problem: the faulty design of the CVT, or the horrible response to the problem by (most, all?) Honda dealerships. The problem is so widespread one can only assume that Honda North America supports the dealers' behavior, although one would imagine they have taken care not to actually write this down anywhere.

Actually, they don't look to be that hard to rebuild:

http://www.youtube.com/v/4K4T03OhArc&hl=en&fs=1

Are you asking if there are good HCH's, or Honda dealers? (or both?)

Are you asking if there are good HCH's, or Honda dealers? (or both?)

Well, specifically I meant Honda service departments and the CVT. Overall I like the HCH quite a bit, but in this case that is like saying "the patient was in perfect health except for his bad heart"!

Actually, they don't look to be that hard to rebuild:



Yeah, sure, its a real piece of cake just taking half the car apart to get the transmission off in the first place. And there's all that room in there to be able to see/reach everything you need to get to.

Actually, they don't look to be that hard to rebuild

Clutch packs are not particularly difficult to repair, of and by themselves. Unfortunately, this relatively serviceable part is buried in a transmission, so you are looking at many, many mechanic hours pulling the transmission, opening it, disassembling it, repairing the pack, reassembling the transmission, and reinstalling it in the car. And after that there is no guarantee that the new clutch pack won't fail again. Apparently at many Honda dealers they only swap whole transmissions (refurbed, or whatever the proper term is) , again with a significant chance that it will fail again ASAP.

Neither fastidious maintenance nor perfect repair work will correct a flawed design.

No more difficult than any other front wheel drive Civic with Auto trans.. All front wheel drive are more complex to repair. H

Whats the issue with these transmissions?..poor design or just too weak for the average abuser (driver)?

Speaking of HCH
Where/what happened to one of our resident HCH owners,and big time dis-liker of the Honda
CVT transmissions in them?
I forget his handle, but think he was/is from OK- near OKC maybe?
Had a machinist background.
Had a wife he loved, but she frequently wrecked the cars(but she had a brother who did body work, so it worked out OK)
Maybe he was psyshak???
He always had something- bad- to say about the Honda CVT
Otherwise he loved Honda engines.
Occasionally he was a bit -strong- in his posts?
What happened to him?
He knew a lot about the Honda CVT

He still pops in, psyshack, his last visit was on 7/27.

Ophbalance
Thanks.
He knew quite a bit about those CVT
Unfortunately it was almost all bad

Whats the issue with these transmissions?..poor design or just too weak for the average abuser (driver)?

Just materials and manufacturing quality.
The first gen CVT's Honda used in their HCH-I were made with components that did not quite meet Honda's goals. Some of these components were manufactured by third parties and quality control fell a little short for this type of application.

For its second and third generation CVT's (HCH-II and HI-II), Honda brought the manufacturing of the most critical components in-house and also altered/improved the quality and specifications of these parts.

Unfortunately one cannot compare CVT's across the board, since not all CVT's are alike and Honda pretty much proves it with their newer gen units being actually better and more reliable than some of their 5 speed ATs. Those who work for Honda/dealers know exactly what I am talking about. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

:rolleyes: about the 5AT. At least they've improved them from the terrible 02-04 Odyssey unit. Let's just say our transmission is younger then the van it's in. Fortunately at no cost to me.

Just materials and manufacturing quality.
The first gen CVT's Honda used in their HCH-I were made with components that did not quite meet Honda's goals. Some of these components were manufactured by third parties and quality control fell a little short for this type of application.

For its second and third generation CVT's (HCH-II and HI-II), Honda brought the manufacturing of the most critical components in-house and also altered/improved the quality and specifications of these parts.



Somebody posted a link to a video of a disassembled CVT in this forum recently. (Don't recall where at the moment.) The vast majority of the pieces were just gears of various sorts and, near as I can tell, they are rarely if ever a problem in the HCH I. The only parts that are definitely trouble prone are the start clutch and the valve assembly. I'm guessing the CVT belt will be a problem in high mileage CVTs, but it is unclear if anybody will bother keeping one that long.

Now the valve assembly problems are clearly a hardware issue. I'm still not convinced that is entirely the case for the starter clutch issues. As discussed in the "what is judder really?" thread

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39671

it could well be that the control electronics do not respond well to changes in the properties of the clutch material with age, and this, and not an outright breakdown of the starter clutch surfaces, is what results in the perceived judder. Also, when clutch materials really wear out, then the clutch slips when it is supposed to hold, and that is definitely not the problem here, since the cars drive fine once they are above 5 MPH or so.

I have not seen a shop manual for this car, but from the parts listings on line it looks like the starter clutch is controlled directly by a solenoid operated control valve part number 27600-PZC-003, which is #8 here:

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=CIVIC+HYBRID&catcgry2=2003&catcgry3=4DR+MX+(HYBRID)&catcgry4=KLCVT&catcgry5=AT+VALVE+BODY

Solenoids like that are usually driven by a pulse width modulated signal. If the control electronics are (partly) at fault, then when the car judders that would be evident in an oscilloscope trace of the voltages on that wire. For comparison, on my car at least, the car does not judder when it first starts up, at least for the first start or two. My guess is that has to do with the slipperiness of the clutch material as a function of temperature, and that when cold it is more in line with what the car "expects".

Can anybody tell me where this control wire is? If I can find it, I can make this measurement.

A negative result (no variations in the trace for judder vs. nonjudder) tells us that this is entirely a mechanical phenomenon, and that's the end of it from a control perspective.

Conversely, if the trace shows PWM modulation corresponding to the judders, then that suggests some sort of control level fix might be possible. Ideally that would be a new flash by Honda, but since they are selling a lot of transmissions and transmission parts, perhaps their incentive to do this is not very high. The problem could potentially be resolved by installing a circuit between the transmission controller and the solenoid that compensates for the control oscillation. Heck, the simplest "fix" might be to put in a clutch pedal which, if employed, sends its own PWM signal based on the amount which it is depressed, and when not employed, just passes on the PWM signal from the existing controller. There are variations on this theme that might also work, for instance the pedal might set the maximum pulse width, preventing the existing controller from overdriving the solenoid and resulting in a smooth launch. The driving experience might be a little odd, one would come to a stop, and then push the clutch pedal down so as to be able to release it for a smooth launch. Still, much better than a juddering start.

Anyway, discussion of potential electronic fixes is premature, since we do not yet know for sure if this is a control issue or not.

pasadena,

Speaking of the shop manual for this car, it might be a worthwhile investment for you to purchase one. There's a very elaborate explanation of how the CVT transmission works in the manual, and maybe it would answer some of your questions.

I paid $70 for a service manual (new), but you may be able to find a used one on the internet.

$52.50 at helminc.com, official service manual: http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=helm&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=CVCC&Year=2003&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&selected%5Fmedia=
I bought one, very helpful.

The video is posted early on in this link! H

The video is on this thread. Post #2. H

$52.50 at helminc.com, official service manual: http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=helm&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=CVCC&Year=2003&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&selected%5Fmedia=
I bought one, very helpful.

There are 4 manuals for the hybrid, which one(s) do I need?

2003-2005 Civic Hybrid Service Manual KA
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid Service Manual
2003-2004 Hybrid Service Manual
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid SULEV Service Manual Supplement

Mine is a 2003 SULEV. The descriptions at helminc are identical for all 4 manuals!

There are 4 manuals for the hybrid, which one(s) do I need?

2003-2005 Civic Hybrid Service Manual KA
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid Service Manual
2003-2004 Hybrid Service Manual
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid SULEV Service Manual Supplement

Mine is a 2003 SULEV. The descriptions at helminc are identical for all 4 manuals!

On the Honda parts websites, KA usually designates "49 states" as opposed to CA (see a site like Majestic or Bernardi Honda parts for example), so maybe not the first one.
And the price of the one they call a supplement is far less than the other 3, so I think that would really be just a smaller supplement. Not sure what's in that supplement, so I don't know if you'd want to buy 2 items or not.

The one I bought is the 2003-2004 version. It has info for both years, and both SULEV and ULEV info is in that manual.
I think either of the middle choices would be correct.

The one I bought is the 2003-2004 version. It has info for both years, and both SULEV and ULEV info is in that manual.


That sounds good, I ordered one. I'm thinking maybe the 2003 + SULEV supplement was what they put out originally, and then they merged the two together for 2004.