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View Full Version : GM tries to unplug Volt hype.


xcel
03-23-2007, 03:51 AM
There's just one problem: The Volt may never get built. (http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070323/AUTO01/703230356/1148)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Lutz_and_the_VOLT.jpgSharon Terlep - Detroit News - Mar. 23, 2007

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz introduces the Chevrolet Volt concept at Detroit's North American International Auto Show. The Volt has attracted much attention since its unveiling in January.

General Motors Corp. seized the world's attention in January when it unveiled plans to build the Chevy Volt -- a plug-in hybrid car touted not so much as a mode of transportation but as part of a solution to the nation's energy crisis.

The Volt grabbed headlines, lit up online chat boards and dominated the buzz at the auto show in Detroit.

There's just one problem: The Volt may never get built.

Production depends on advances in battery technology that could be years away. The uncertainty led to intense debate within GM over whether it was wise to show the Volt in Detroit. And now that the world's waiting for GM to deliver what could be the biggest environmental breakthrough so far this century, company officials are actively trying to temper expectations.

The enormity of GM's challenge was evident last week when it called journalists to a backgrounder to explain the technological hurdles facing the Volt project -- and reiterate that it can't guarantee the futuristic car will ever hit the road.

"The pressure is intense," Nick Zielinski, the Volt's chief engineer, said at the event, which attracted more than 100 reporters. "We came out with this idea" and now people are saying, 'OK, where is this car. We want it now.'

The auto industry has disappointed before when it comes to green technology.

DaimlerChrysler AG promised a production fuel-cell vehicle by 2004, but couldn't deliver despite spending $1 billion on the technology. And little came of a $1.5 billion taxpayer-funded effort, called the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, to build an 80-miles-per-gallon car. Last year, Ford Motor Co. took an image beating when it backed away from a pledge to put 250,000 hybrids on the road by 2010.

Still, GM's Volt gamble could pay off big for an automaker trying to transform its behind-the-times image. A vehicle loaded with cutting-edge green technology would position GM as an environmental leader and help it compete against foreign rivals that dominate the growing market for Earth-friendly cars and trucks.

The concept Volt is designed with an electric drivetrain and an internal combustion engine that recharges the vehicle's batteries while on the road.

While the range of plug-in cars has typically been no more than 20 to 30 miles on battery power alone, the Volt would have a range of 40 miles, GM says, and drivers wouldn't have to stop every time it needs a charge.

There's just one obstacle.

"All of this is irrelevant until they get a battery pack invented," said Joseph Phillippi of AutoTrends Consulting in Short Hills, N.J. "For a long time, they were out there knocking the idea of a plug-in hybrid. Now they're on board, but, theoretically, GM is still learning."

Remember GM's EV1?

The Volt isn't GM's first foray into electric cars. In the 1990s, the automaker spent $1 billion on its EV1 electric car program, which ended when GM demanded the return of its leased vehicles. The decision drew the ire of environmental groups and EV1 drivers and spawned the unflattering "Who Killed the Electric Car?" documentary.

GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner has called killing the EV1 his biggest mistake. For evidence he was right look no further than Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. The maker of the popular Prius hybrid has capitalized on its green image just as more Americans are embracing environmentalism.

With the Volt, GM has a shot at redemption.

"It's a breakthrough of immense magnitude -- potentially one of the two or three most significant game changers that we've seen in a long time," said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor.

When the time came to unveil plans for the Volt, GM wanted to make a bold statement.

Wagoner began dropping hints about GM's plans in November at the Los Angeles Auto Show, where he listed developing alternative energy sources as one of GM's top priorities. When it debuted in January in Detroit, the Volt generated glowing praise for its striking appearance and the technology behind it.

Shortly after the show, GM launched a "Vote for Volt" Web site, which asks visitors if they think GM should build the Volt and if they would consider buying one. Nearly 440,000 people had cast votes as of Thursday.

With all the attention, though, has come intense and sometimes scathing scrutiny.

Some dismiss the move as a publicity stunt by a company struggling to stay relevant. Others question whether GM was being realistic in pinning its hopes on the uncertain science of battery technology. Still others say GM's Asian rivals are likely to beat it to the punch.

"GM has more of a recent history of failure than of being at the cutting edge," said Bruce Vanden Bergh, a Michigan State University advertising professor.

GM faces a credibility challenge with the American public, Vanden Bergh said.

If the Volt flops, it could do irreparable damage to the company's reputation.

"They'd better make it work," he said, "or they're going to look stupid."

Rival questions strategy

At least one GM rival questions the automaker's strategy.

Nancy Gioia, Ford's director of sustainable mobility technologies and hybrids, said while it is important to showcase innovative research, there is little value in committing to a technology that still generates more questions than it answers and may not even be commercially viable.

That's why Ford's plug-in hybrid was displayed in a corner of its Detroit auto show pavilion, rather than center stage, where GM showcased the Volt.

"If we say we're going to do something," she said. "You're going to see it."

Even GM insiders debated the wisdom of rolling out the Volt without the battery technology needed to power it and some early concerns have been realized. On Capitol Hill, for example, there is a general lack of understanding about how a concept vehicle becomes a production model, Zielinski said. As a result, GM's credibility is in question in some corners.

To deal with skeptics, GM has made public an unprecedented amount of information about a vehicle still in development.

GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said this week that GM's strategy is to let people know about any problems early so they don't feel duped should the Volt not succeed, a risk he estimates to be about 10 percent.

"Having said that," he wrote in an e-mail, "I am growingly convinced that we will pull it off."

No matter what GM's strategy, the automaker is bound to take heat, said Cole of the Center for Automotive Research.

"There are a lot of anti-GM skeptics," he said. "It's the penalty that comes with being No. 1."

msantos
03-23-2007, 08:12 AM
Wow... and I always thought "soap operas" were not for me.
Seriously, I really hope that GM pulls through on this "Volt" issue - at least introduce just OK series hybrid - even if it sports a more modest (or no plug-in) capability. They should at least be able to do that. If they don't, then I fear no "battery improvements" in the world is going to help them.


Cheers;

MSantos

AshenGrey
03-23-2007, 08:17 AM
I think it's good that GM went for transparency instead of secrecy. Also, since GM is doing so much new research, it could lead to the development of some other kind of hybrid even if the Volt doesn't work out.

Fenrir
03-23-2007, 09:42 AM
What exactly are the "technological hurdles" of the battery? If they could build the EV-1 more than 10 years ago with a range of what, 80 miles for the genII? why are they struggling to find a battery that will give the Volt a 40 mile range? What kind of black magic is Tesla Motors conjuring? They've got a Lithium Ion battery on the road right now that gives their Roadster a range of 300+ miles per charge. Is GM investing any money in battery manufacturers? Or have they simply thrown their hands in the air?

This wreaks of a FUD campaign. GM knows they'll have to retool themselves in a major way, and they dread it. So they're trying to delay it by spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about the prospects of cleaner transportation. I expect nothing more from them.

TonyPSchaefer
03-23-2007, 12:27 PM
I like this part:Nancy Gioia, Ford's director of sustainable mobility technologies and hybrids, said while it is important to showcase innovative research, there is little value in committing to a technology that still generates more questions than it answers and may not even be commercially viable.

And then this:
Ford bails out on hybrid promise (http://www.globalexchange.org/war_peace_democracy/oil/4011.html)

Dan
03-23-2007, 01:43 PM
What exactly are the "technological hurdles" of the battery? If they could build the EV-1 more than 10 years ago with a range of what, 80 miles for the genII? why are they struggling to find a battery that will give the Volt a 40 mile range? What kind of black magic is Tesla Motors conjuring?

Some of it may be Patent based. I recall that GM sold the battery tech of the EV 1 to Chevron and I don't think Chevron is licensing the technology back to GM.

Think Telsa uses Lithium-Ion. Should work in the volt too, but It may push the price point beyond where they want it. I didn't see any hard numbers on the Volt, but they may have said something like "Plug in hybrid for less than 30k". Thought the Telsa was somewhere around 100k.

11011011

AshenGrey
03-23-2007, 03:32 PM
I agree... The hurdle in question is not technological but financial. GM obviously wants the Volt to be a midlevel car (hence the Chevy name and not Cadillac). Can they make a Volt)? Sure. Can they make it for $30k? That is less than certain.

xcel
03-23-2007, 04:19 PM
Hi All:

___I am not sure why GM is backpedaling here although I will say that if the 08/09 Saturn VUE w/ its front drive 2Mode - PHEV works out, it may be more efficient then the Volt’s serial design and less expensive to tool for.

___Now about those batteries … We have spoken with some seriously connected people in this industry over the past 3 months and we keep hearing that the battery testing is exceeding expectations for both longevity and durability from both the battery makers and the OEM’s. We know the Prius II’s 1.3 kWh of Panasonic NiMH’s costs ~ $800 OEM w/ a touch over 40% range of SoC. An advanced Li-Ion pack with a 50 - 70% DoD need only be 15 - 20 kWh to achieve 40 miles of EV range. In bulk, the packs will probably cost between $4 and $5K. Less so in the near future. With the cost savings of GM’s 2Mode tranny and the downsizing of the ICE (we know GM is screwing up on that side of the equation wrt their near term 2Mode offerings), I see a G6 based PHEV starting in the low to mid-20’s. The Federal government will be giving away the store in terms of tax credits for a Domestic manufacture’s PHEV so expect to see the pack upcharge almost entirely subsidized with incentives.

___Let us all hope we here of more successes then failures in the future given it appears as if Toyota has been completely locked out from using A123 Systems Li-Ion’s? US government funding into MIT which is where A123Sytems got its start could be a reason possibly? I am sure Toyota is looking very hard to find there own supply of robust and PHEV capable Li-Ion’s from Panasonic EV or Toshiba but we have not heard much other then somebody’s Li-Ion’s will be used in the Prius III?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

hobbit
03-23-2007, 09:40 PM
With an onboard engine, why are the batteries a hurdle at
all? You start to run down, you just light the stinky
thing and you're golden until the fuel runs out. I don't
understand the supposed argument.
.
_H*

xcel
03-24-2007, 02:20 AM
Hi Hobbit:

___The OEM’s and manufacturers know the packs work but they are all scared to death that the packs will lose a whole bunch of cap in the Arizona sun or Minnesota cold in 5 or 6 years with a bunch of replacements needed afterwards. That kind of news would blow up in all their faces and I believe they are not quite willing to trust the A123Systems/JCI-Saft Li-Ion test data just yet is all?

___Imagine if Prius I and II Panasonic packs all of a sudden needed replacement at the 5 or 6 year mark and 89,000 miles just beyond the warranty of most owners. Oopps! Toyota hybrid sales would grind to a halt overnight with current owners screaming bloody murder while shelling out $3K + for the smallish 1.7 kWh Ni-MH’s after such a short period of time. Toyota would never give you their $800 OEM price, that is a guarantee. Honda has been replacing the smallish Insight Ni-MH’s for owners who are far beyond their original warranties like crazy these past 2 years just so they don’t receive the bad press … I know people that have gone ballistic with a $1,500 tranny repair on a ton of different non-hybrid automobiles including older Honda Odysseys, Acura MDX’s and Honda Accord V6’s let alone Chrysler, GM and Ford products. Think sludge on not just 1% of the previous gen Camry’s but 50% and you have the picture. Can you imagine what most average owners would do if he or she received a $4K - $5K + bill for a pack on a car just out of warranty?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

lightfoot
03-24-2007, 05:59 AM
Good points. But isn't it a gamble either way? If GM sits there and gathers test data for a few years before adopting new battery technologies while a competitor plunges ahead, GM will lose in the short term (until problems with the competitor's batteries crop up) and possibly in the long term (if there are no problems with the batteries). OTOH if GM uses the new technologies, as you say they may face a rash of battery replacement issues in a few years.

In a way, this has already happened with Toyota and Honda gambling to jump into NiMH technology and (apparently) figuring they will deal with any problems that arise. Maybe limiting its exposure with new technology was another reason why Honda didn't push Insights; this was a clever way to gather real-world battery data. The jury is probably still out on the Civic and Prius batteries.

Who knows, the market may come to accept that batteries need to be replaced during the lifetime of a car. The volume of battery production may bring the cost down, and/or a battery rebuilding/recycling industry may develop that will also reduce the cost. As gas prices rise, 4-5 years of reduced fuel costs with a hybrid or a plug-in may cover the cost of a battery replacement.

One strategy for GM might be to use the new technology in only one of its family of brand names, say Saturn. Then if there are problems it might not reflect quite as badly on GM as a whole.

msantos
03-24-2007, 09:11 AM
Wayne, you captured some very valid points.

I may also add the following (particularly in case of Honda or Toyota):
Both Honda and Toyota (but especially Toyota) are run like monster oligarchies where all part suppliers are "part of the family". "Outsiders" have a very hard time getting close to either of the companies' core competencies. They are no good unless they can be bought.

Chances are that if an important component in car, which in this case a battery pack would be, is manufactured by an external entity (with a large collection of investors applying pressure for a quick return on their investment) neither Honda nor Toyota will look at that company's technology as viable or even profitable. If they can't control it then they cannot manage risk. It is that simple.
The way both japanese car makers can make money and build upon their reputation is to "own" a significant part of each part supplier so that they control the IP, the manufacturing processes and quality, the price and hence the profit margin... and also retain some exclusivity and the much needed market edge.

I am not too sure about GM (or Ford's) management models, and whether this approach applies to them too. I suspect not entirely if at all.

The thing about companies like A123Systems is that they are not the most attractive business partners to established giants like Toyota and Honda. At this pont, these emerging companies have their own agressive and focused management, investors, goals and great expectations and worse of all, they are too public and not easily controllable in a way that either Toyota or Honda would want them to be as parts suppliers.

So what would either Toyota and Honda do? We'll as they already indicated, they would rather research and develop their own next generation battery technology. They've poored billions over the last decade alone to ensure that if any critical technology is used in their cars that it belongs close "to home". On the other hand, the licensing costs for a technology they do not own would have to be extremely low to mitigate the risks and increase the profit viability.

Where does that leave companies like A123Systems? In my opinion, they may have extremely good and capable technology but unless a favorable 'shift' happens - and this shift can have many faces - their technology may need to continue to develop. Because according to some analysts, there's still much room for improvement and where there is improvement, there is a lower price potential and a higher yield manufacturing that can put most auto makers' worries to rest.

I remain faithful that such a shift can occur. Perhaps GM will be the main driver of that shift. I don't really know.

Anyhow, it remains a complicated world not bound to get any easier. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

psyshack
03-24-2007, 09:11 AM
I don't think its the battery's at all...

I think its a marketing move. Just look at the volt. It looks like it came from the Camaro stable. And in all honestly. I think if produced it could at some level derail Camaro.

xcel
03-24-2007, 02:10 PM
Hi Lightfoot and Msantos:

___Thank you for the detailed replies as it makes for an interesting discussion to say the least.

___With what you two have posted, I am very hopeful that A123Systems Li-Ion tech is a success for the domestics HEV/PHEV plans and is protected via enough patents so as to force the Japanese manufacturers to come to our table rather then we to there’s. It is one thing to desire the Toyota Prius III Li-Ion based PHEV before the details are even out (everyone here knows that I do) and yet another to hope for a successful Li-Ion based PHEV from GM, Ford or DCX in order to stave off the hemorrhaging they have endured these past 2 years. I have no ill will towards our domestics and would like to see them succeed in the worst way but it will only happen if “we” push GM/F/DCX into placing a HQ PHEV on the market before the Japanese do. This is a type of “last defense” in the case of the domestics because they simply cannot continue with their heads in the sand any longer. If A123Systems or JCI-SAFT will be the domestic auto manufacturers savior’s, better us then them given the $billions lost over the past 2 years :(

___In the case of US citizens being harmed because of the Japanese brilliance (or deceit?), it is indeed real and I would like to see a more positive outcome for our country’s large scale employers and our citizenry as a whole.

Hot new thing: driving the message. (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3911) - Third section down.

___Psy, speaking with the guys in charge of the Volt, they do not believe it will have the current look once production (if production) is finalized. The Volt concept was pushing technology far beyond what I thought was practical or feasible from what we saw and GM has said the same in any number of Volt News items we have posted here since its January release.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

xcel
03-24-2007, 08:21 PM
Hi All:

___Just when I thought my A123Systems quest would run out of steam, EV World does an Expose on yet another success story of these magic cels.

The Secret of the Killacycle's Success. (http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1215)

http://www.evworld.com/images/killacycle_sideview.jpg
PHOTO CAPTION: Scotty Pollacheck astride the world's quickest electric motorcycle powered by $12,000 of A123 Systems M1 lithium-ion batteries. Despite pushing the batteries to the boiling point of water and sucking 4000 watts/kg of power from the pack, the team has yet to replace a single cell, proof these batteries are different in a big way.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Fenrir
03-26-2007, 08:12 AM
I have no ill will towards our domestics and would like to see them succeed in the worst way but it will only happen if “we” push GM/F/DCX into placing a HQ PHEV on the market before the Japanese do. This is a type of “last defense” in the case of the domestics because they simply cannot continue with their heads in the sand any longer. If A123Systems or JCI-SAFT will be the domestic auto manufacturers savior’s, better us then them given the $billions lost over the past 2 years :(

Agreed. The failure of our domestic auto companies is very bad news for the economy. All the more reason for GM to tell it like it is instead of stretching the truth. They should stop saying "the battery doesn't exist" and start saying "the battery is still too expensive".

hobbit
03-27-2007, 01:16 AM
Okay, I've read the posts about risk factor and reputation
and thought about it a bit, but it still isn't sitting well
with me. Look at the very earliest Prius battery packs --
they were crap, and several early-adopter Insight owners
found themselves in so much "recal hell" that they've got
newer packs by now. At this point I would argue that no
battery is 100% bulletproof but what's out there at this
moment in time is pretty good, and certainly usable to build
a BEV around. Darelldd over on Priuschat keeps pointing
out how the old NiMH pack in his rav4-EV is still going
strong and giving him over a hundred miles of range. And
that's without any internal-combustion boost.
.
At some point you've got to declare "good enough" and move
forward, anticipating the few problems that might come up
and handling contingencies. GM is out of time for excuses.
.
_H*

ericbecky
03-27-2007, 07:19 PM
GM's Bob Lutz had a great response to this "unplugging the volt" article.

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/

GM Charging Ahead with Volt

By Bob Lutz
GM Vice Chairman

I knew it wouldn’t be long before the naysayers came out.

We’re not unplugging anything. We revealed the Chevrolet Volt, our electrically driven concept vehicle, to much praise at the Detroit show in January. We said we knew we had a tough challenge to see it through, but that we’re committed to the program. We said, both then and recently here on FastLane, that we plan to keep everyone up to speed on our progress and to discuss openly and transparently the technological, engineering and design hurdles we face. Just a couple of weeks ago we had more than 100 journalists and interested parties join our team, including outside battery experts, to learn more about what is happening behind our lab doors.

I’ve said before that this is not a publicity stunt, but it’s as if people don’t want to believe it if we give them anything short of a guarantee of Volt delivery… with an exact date, time and sticker price.

I will say it here and I know I will have to say it again many times: We are 100 percent committed to making this happen. We are invigorated by the challenge. We are going to continue to be as transparent as we can in this process, knowing that there are some proprietary technology issues we will have to keep veiled. And we understand there are numerous obstacles ahead of us, but our team has set out on a clearly defined mission to develop technology that will transform the automobile. This is probably the toughest and most exciting effort GM has undertaken. There is no turning back.



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