Archives

Well, I've been expanding my Hypermiling techniques lately and have fallen in love with FAS, it REALLY helps. Now, I am not sure I have the terminology down right.. by FAS I might mean BFAS but what I mean is turn the key off and coast.

This appears to me to be the biggest advantage of driving a hybrid, the ability to do this over and over without wearing out the ring gear and starter.

My question is: In the Insight, when I do this am I really always using the big brushless non-wearing motor to restart with the key? Or am I really using the 12V starter? The built-in AS uses the big motor I know but when I turn the key what really happens??

Just filled Little Red for the third measurable tank, really not sure why it went down from the last tank...just more short trips in colder weather I guess.
:mad: I know my measured segments are much improved with FAS. My routine is now 5 FAS in my morning 6.6mi commute.

Gary

when you use the key ignition to turn the car on either from a stopped ... parked position ... or while already moving.... the Car's internal computer determines if it wants to use the 144V IMA motor to start the car up like it does from the stock Auto Stop... or the 12V Starter.... I think the variables the car uses are , the external temperature and the engines temperature and the state of charge of the 144V battery pack .... so if you are using the key to turn the engine off and on you might be using the 12V starter motor and not the 144V IMA motor....

If you have an Insight... I recommend installing a actual FAS switch relay system instead of using the ignition key.... in my experience it is a much better way to start and stop the insight's engine manually.

You can also use MIMA to force the 144V IMA motor to start the car under almost any conditions ... Even when it is soo cold that the car would not normally use the 144V IMA motor but instead would switch over to the 12V Starter Motor ... MIMA can force the Insight to use the 144V IMA motor anyway.... although Mike knows more about it than I do.

Hi InsightGary:

___Oh yes, FAS’ing is the cats meow in an Insight ;)

___Given your location, you will never see or hear the 12V as the only time I ever heard it was when it was below 0 degrees F. When you hear the 12V bringing up the 1.0L, It has a completely unique and different sound then anything you have ever heard coming from under the hood of a car! You are bringing her up on the 144V pack through IMA, not the 12V after a FAS is a guarantee.

___Also, do make sure you reboot (forward your key to IG-II) to get your airbags, anti-locks, steering and the ever present FCD(s) up and running again.

___Finally, Iamian is dead on about a FAS switch sans the key. I was amazed at how well Randall’s worked during the Insight Marathon as well as looked. Never had one installed on your vehicle but if I was serious, it would be one of the first mods I would consider.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

OK, thanks guys. I was pretty sure that was the case.. but considering that I am doing it more and more and you are right, it sounds the same every time so I 've probably never heard the 12V starter I just wanted to be sure..
Yes, a FAS system is in the plans. Got my own system ideas though, don't want to start cutting the injector wires:eek:

Yes, I reboot after I kill it which is the drawback.. sometimes I don't leave it off long enough and it restarts, sometimes I wait too long and I miss miles of good mileage.. yes an automated system is needed!

Before that though, I need to finish my throttle lock made out of an old Lexus cruise control motor actuator... Its almost done. Future plans for that are making it into a real cruise control as well as computer controlled accelerator for the perfect slow accelleration..

Gary
Little Red Beauty Lives On! Long live Little Red!:Banane04:

I'm FASing more and more....as a recent thread said, I can sneak it in. :D

If you check out http://www.cleanairwisconsin.org/airquality/ecodriving.php - it states it's not going to wear out your engine faster.

The only caveat is don't allow the battery charge to get too low.

As Wayne has already mentioned, it would be very rare to ever use the 12V battery to start the car.

I FAS all the time but FASing does have a few drawbacks you should be aware of. There is a safety issue because you lose PS (for a few seconds) and PB (once the vacuum is gone). For safety's sake you should be aware of exactly how a FAS will affect your PS and PB.

The other FAS issue is that FASing is hard on your 12 battery. The reason being that during a normal autostop the DC/DC converter stays on the and the main pack keeps the 12V battery charged. The DC/DC converter (for some reason) does not function during a FAS so any 12V load is coming right from your undersized 12V battery. This load might include lights, fans and maybe even your PS. Does the Insight have PS?

I'm not suggesting for one second that you do not FAS, as I mentioned I do it all the time (as do pretty much all good IMA hypermilers), just be aware and be careful.

Hi Gary:

___The way Randall’s Insight’s FAS switch was wired kept the Inverter/Converter live through a FAS so there will not be an issue there ;)

___Jason, Gary already knows the caveats to a FAS. He has been reading a lot longer then you may have noticed is all …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Gary:

___Jason, Gary already knows the caveats to a FAS. He has been reading a lot longer then you may have noticed is all …


___Wayne

OH yeah, I know.. and even with PS and PB shut down, and Insight steers and stops easier than most of the cars I've ever owned!!
I've been reading(intensly studying actually) everything ever written about Insights and Hypermiling because of that and other projects I haven't been posting much. BUT, as someone else posted a few days ago "Hypermiling is my new hobby"!!
I think I am actually doing pretty good. If I only lived in the flatlands and didn't use the car for short trips, I THINK I would have mileage up there with you guys. I started out getting about 58mpg on my morning commute. With careful battery management(Calpod switch, etc.) careful throttle app, slow speed (never over about 58mph) and now lots of FAS, I have seen 72+mpg on a good day. Its only 6.6miles with stopsigns stoplights lots of traffic, accidents, etc. so every day is a new adventure and new segment mpg. But its a rare full day (including the climb back up the hill) that I see <64mpg total daily now.
Gary
Little Red (workin in retirement in now sunny California!!)
PS just pulled the radiator block and put the stock intake snorkle all back
a couple days ago..

insightgary: your insight still has PS when in FAS. its electric. as for PB, you still have about 3 pedal pumps, and then the ICE will fire up again to replenish the vacuum booster. not to worry.

Schematic of Calpod/Highwater FAS system with clutch latching relay.
http://www.99mpg.com/Data/resources/downloads/relateddocuments/highwaterfas.pdf
photos of a two relay FAS system at bottom of this page:
http://www.99mpg.com/Projectcars/TheBestHybridmix/

insightgary: your insight still has PS when in FAS. its electric. as for PB, you still have about 3 pedal pumps, and then the ICE will fire up again to replenish the vacuum booster. not to worry.

In factory AS you are right. But, when you turn the key OFF, PS electric boost is off. If you exceed the PB vacuum with the key off-back on FAS it won't turn back on if vacuum is depleted I am pretty sure.. If you have MIMA or the relay FAS, you are right, it will auto turn back on... but I am doing with just the key.

Getting it to use factory AS when you want to FAS at speed seems to me to be the holy grail, that's what I want to try when I get time.

If any body has info how to do that without cutting injector wires, relays,etc. LET ME KNOW! Searching the archives, I think aobut a year ago a guy in Los Altos(IIRC) was working on it and I think was real close. What I am going to try is break the VSS connection and supply my own slowly decelerating signal.

Gary

If I can get the components for my plug in MIMA, the same technique of pulling the pins out of the connectors, would allow an FAS relay attachment that would not involve wire cutting.
See pin replacement concept at:
http://www.99mpg.com/mima/buymima/