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Hi All:

I saw Grossinger Toyota here in Chicago advertising in the Chicago Tribune that they have over 150 Prius’ on their lot and they are dealing. Along with the $1,000 cash back by Toyota, Grossinger is going to $450 over invoice or thereabouts. That can surely be taken down another $250 or so as well.

In case you are interested in a 10 Prius that is…

Good Luck

Wayne

So what would that bring the cost down to for a base model with AC? Or the luxury model loaded? - Dale

Hi, Wayne-

Sounds like an awesome discount. Did you try stopping in or calling to confirm this discount???? I know sometime prices are not what the ads implies.

Cheers, Ed



Hi All:

I saw Grossinger Toyota here in Chicago advertising in the Chicago Tribune that they have over 150 Prius’ on their lot and they are dealing. Along with the $1,000 cash back by Toyota, Grossinger is going to $450 over invoice or thereabouts. That can surely be taken down another $250 or so as well.

In case you are interested in a 10 Prius that is…

Good Luck

Wayne

You're killing me!

My wife keeps telling me "no, honey, you can't trade in the HCH II on a new Prius. You know that there will be something else in 2 or 3 more years that you'll want anyway.."

As much as it's not the absolute most economical thing, I wish it was reasonable to lease cars in Illinois (for those outside of the state, the tax laws make it a total ripoff).

I saw Grossinger Toyota here in Chicago advertising in the Chicago Tribune that they have over 150 Prius’ on their lot

I've just made a half-hearted attempted to find any 2010 Honda Civic Hybrid in Vancouver: there is nothing, 2010's are a complete no-show in Vancouver, and I believe in Canada as a whole, though I'd love to be proved wrong. Dealers typically have one or two 2009's, and I can't see purchasing a hybrid that's been sitting on a lot for 6 months, last years model, and forget about color choice.

Hmm, no wonder Honda's hardly selling any HCHs. You can't sell them if you don't build them and deliver them to the dealers.

As for the Prius, the sensible level II package stickers at $22,800 and invoices at $21,432. So this deal means you can get a Prius for $20,882 (though I doubt it's much better than the Costco deal). Is the destination charge also folded into this deal, or do you still pay it on top?

I believe invoice on a 2010 Prius II is about $22,500 including destination. I paid $21,500 OTD at my local dealer for a Prius II. that price included the $750 rebate here in my region.

I'm trying to make as an informed (read intelligent) decision as possible as to whether to buy a 2010 (model II) Prius now at $21,800 (without the $1k rebate) or wait on the 2011.

I am in northern IL and commute 100 miles a day - mostly on flat I-88. Driving this time of year on cruise control at 60 mph, what MPG could I reasonably expect from the 2010?

Regarding the 2011 Prius - a) is it possible to predict what MPG I could reasonably expect from the PHEV under the same conditions?; b) what MPG could I expect from the non-PHEV?; and c) is it possible to predict a ballpark price for these two?


Thank you,

Robert

Hi Robert:

If you keep your cars a long time, the 2010 would be fine but I doubt Toyota will add much more to the MSRP than they have already. There is already an $800 upcharge Toyota tacked on to the MSRP after its launch in late May of last year. This $800 + more is given back in rebates and Dealer discounts we are not privy to but it places the 10 Prius’ price into perspective.

In any case, if you are not in a hurry, I would wait for the 11 and I am sure you will be able to pick it up for near what you have locked down on a 10.

Regarding 60 mph, expect 55 mpg. It will go higher if you are running I-88 from the West side of the city however as that is a backed up stop and crawl nightmare almost daily near Rush. If you are out west of Schaumburg, it will be a lot better. If you are out near Dekalb, well you know the traffic out there better than I as it is always wide open and your FE will actually fall due to the higher speeds :) FE is really up to you and if you want 60 mpg from it, a lot more 57 to 58 mph speeds will be needed vs the PSL of 65.

Regarding the PHEV, once you have finished off the Pack, it is not as efficient as a regular Prius. Running 100-miles per day will see a slight savings but there is a penalty for driving around with the excess weight once the pack has been depleted. If you can charge at work however, you should be able to squeeze 20 to 30-miles of all electric out of her which will make a difference. We simply do not know the price Toyota will be offering the PHEV for yet is all. The extra R&D should only add ~ $3K to the price but car manufacturers charge a lot more for their halo cars than they are worth initially so expect to be disappointed with the price at first glance.

I suspect Toyota is waiting to see what the Volt comes in at including its uptake and fleet FE numbers before it releases their own. Remember the Prius PHEV in its present form has been on the road for far longer than the Volt has been yet the release will be well after. That triple sized Li-Ion has to be perfect as Toyota wants nothing to do with any more recalls and especially on their halo car in particular.

My thoughts anyway and I hope they helped???

PS, it really is a great car and even though I also like other less expensive automobiles, the Prius is still the true fuel saver while offering good safety and excellent reliability for the North American consumer.

Good Luck and let us know what you decide.

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Thank you for your thoughts, and yes it helps tremendously. I hope you don't mind a few more questions (I apologize if I am asking something that's already been answered elsewhere).

I commute from Dekalb to Downers Grove (via I-88) every day, and there is not much gridlock... it's mostly smooth sailing these days.

If I drive 57-58 mph on this stretch and can hope to get 60 mpg out of the 2010, are you able (legal obligations, etc.?) to provide your opinion on what I might expect to get out of the 2011 PHEV if I can charge at home and at work?

What do you think I could expect to get out of the 2011 non-PHEV under those conditions?

Lastly, what other less expensive vehicles do you like?

Thanks again,

Robert

OOOPS... FWIW, my earlier post should have read $21,800 sale price - not OTD. Sorry.

Hi Wayne and other experts,

I guess what I'm asking is if you would be so kind as to translate for the common man (me) and provide your top x picks under 25k for the type of commute I have as described (essentially 100 miles a day of flat open interstate highway). It'd be icing on the cake if you could also provide the accompanying predicted ballpark mpg at a given (optimal highway) speed for each car.

Thank you from the common man.

Robert

Hi Robert:

Because of your long highway run, I would say the Prius PHEV would be out. The Volt or LEAF would certainly do it but that long highway run is going to take away so many of the advantages the Prius PHEV offers.

In detail and back of the envelope…

2011 Prius PHEV vs. standard 2011 Prius

Let us imagine the Prius PHEV allowed you 12.5 miles AER on the way to work and 12.5 miles on the way back. This is optimal with no A/C or heat. There is still a cost of plugging in (it’s about one-third the cost of fueling the Prius at our IL rates). I hate getting into this because there is a lot of benefits from plugging that do not show up as cost at the pump. In addition, the cost at the pump will rise much faster than electricity rates over the longer term more than likely.

Assume your 100-miles RT is 75 miles on gasoline and 25 on electric. The 25-miles of Electric costs about $0.50 (.2kWh/mile at $0.11/kWh). The 75 miles on gasoline costs about $3.75 (75 miles at 55 mpg and gasoline at $2.75 per gallon). $4.25/day.

Remember the Prius PHEV looses a few mpg on the highway vs. the std. Prius so I used a 55 mpg rating.

100 miles at 60 mpg and gasoline at $2.75 per gallon = $4.60 per day.

You will never make up the cost of the PHEV upcharge with a $0.35/day savings.

The second item is purchasing a Prius 2011 or 2012 PHEV. They are going to fleets in limited quantities for year one. Year two and we may see a few but I suspect they will be $30K units.

Regarding optimum highway speed, approximately 50 mpg but that section of Interstate from Dekalb to Downers Grove and back sees some really high speed vehicles. I believe a guy was busted at over 140 out there a few years back :rolleyes: and a more comfortable speed would be 55 to 60 mph in the right hand lane. A Std. Prius should do 60 between those with the boost you receive as you enter Downers Grove and Dekalb proper.

I hope that helped…

Wayne

Thanks Wayne! It's truly appreciated.

Do you think the 2011 Prius will earn a significantly better MPG at 60 mph for that commute? Or will the 2010 and 2011 earn approximately the same?

I think I read somewhere reliable that the 2010 HCH II has bigger gearing and would rival the Prius for this type of commute?

What do you think?

Thanks,

Robert

I have a 2010 Prius and at a limit of 60mph, I can average a little over 60 mpg. It varies, but on trips, tanks are usually over 60mpg per fcd. The pump calculated is around 54 to 58 mpg. We have one of the early ones that has a gross error in the fcd calculation.

Hi Robert:

I cannot guarantee the 11 Prius is going to be more or less fuel efficient than the 2010 but I suspect they are going to be dead even more than likely. The 10 Prius needed little in the way of ECU tweaks in its first 14-months of availability so I doubt you will see any changes in the drivetrain.

The HCH-II includes a higher price tag and smaller interior but will do better on the Interstate than the 2010 Prius in our drives of each. Getting 70 + in the Gen II was hard but doable. The Gen-III to 70 + mpg is way more work and you need some luck... The HCH-II on the Interstate can blast those numbers without breathing hard. Those are all achieved while really pushing the envelope however. Driving in the 55 to 60 mph band, the Prius will allow you 60 mpg while the HCH-II will allow maybe 62 to 63 mpg as a best guess. Begin driving in the 65 to 70 + mph range and the 10 Prius overtakes the 10 HCH-II. It has been a while since I have driven an HCH-II so watch for some of the HCH-II owners chime in with their experience.

Good Luck

Wayne

My personal experience in the Prius and HCH-II pretty much parallels what Wayne and Mike said.

However, let me be a bit more specific:
If you are going to work at it (no cruise control on the highway with Scangauge), the HCH-II will give you the most in return provided that you remain in the 55-65 MPH speed band. Yes, it will be a bit tiresome on the longest trips 100+ miles but you'll have the widest smile when you start seeing the 70+ numbers by doing nothing more than minute adjustments of the accelerator pedal. If you are NOT going to work at it by simply keeping it in CC, then the HCH-II will not offer the same sky high results at all.
The gen 3 Prius is visibly a more spacious car and feels a bit top-heavy when compared to the HCH-II which seems to capitalize on its lower roof line and wider track than the Prius. Road noise at highway speeds is marginally higher on the HCH-II but it also sports a much lower propensity for other noises (like rattles and "rough road" noises). In the colder days, the Gen 3 Prius can be very annoying as rattles seem to come from everywhere. Yes, my 2010 Prius is a first year model but so is my 2006 HCH and yet, the HCH-II remains one quiet and rattle free package.
I am quite certain that for most families the Prius can easily displace an SUV or minivan as it can swallow a generous amount of cargo without complaint. You need to be very industrious and creative to carry a lot of cargo on the HCH-II and then there are somethings you simply cannot dream of carrying on the HCH-II... but unless you make a living out of dragging stuff from IKEA then this should not be a big problem either.
Knowing what I know today, I would not hesitate to pick an HCH-II if the commutes are mostly highway. If you enjoy the FE game then it is never ending fun. But still, it is not without compromises and in my view, for a single car family the 3G Prius is the better overall choice.
The Prius seems to have a noticeably smaller fuel tank and while this is not a problem in a mostly urban life, I feel the apparently larger tank capacity on the HCH-II to be a better and more comfortable fit for longer distance driving. Especially if you get in the habit of scoring 70+ MPGs on a regular basis.
If only doing mostly urban type commuting, then the 3G Prius remains the car to beat as it will make a hypermiler out of almost anyone who's willing to drive sensibly. No joke here at all. However, if you seek the highest MPG by working at it, then the 3G Prius can be very, VERY frustrating at times as it will not allow as much FE potential as the older (second generation) Prius did. On this note, I would also not hesitate buying a second gen if the price is right and the car is in excellent shape.In the end give them all a test drive (including the 2nd gen Prius) and pick the one that best fits your expectations and needs. I sort of solved my "decision making problem" by having one of each. So far no regrets. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

Thanks MSantos. Wow, you guys are great. Thank you. Where else could I ask these kind of questions and not only not get an eye roll and someone thinking I'm nuts - but great, detailed responses to boot.

Do you guys think I be considering a TDI Jetta (or any other car) for this commute?

Robert

IMHO: I would go for the Prius. The diesel service is $$$ killer in comparison. Diesels can get great mileage, but the added expense of fuel filters along with VW expense of ownership and emissions difference is what I look at.

Hi Robert:

When you go shopping for a new car, you go shopping for a new car! And all excellent choices as well :D

The Jetta TDI is yet another of the heavy hitters and the 2011 receives the all-new body style with ann even larger platform including more interior room and standard amenities. Here is our take on the 09 Jetta TDI Sportwagen (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26105) (I loved this car!) and Manuels fascinating drive in the 09 Jetta TDI (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21478). As Mike mentioned, there may be maintenance expenses in the future...

Here is the preview of the 2010 Prius (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20725) and you can find our write-ups on the Base, the fully loaded Technology demonstrator and the Prius PHEV12/13 in the 2010 - 2011 Prius forum.

And of course our take on the 2008 HCH-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15422) which soon after lead to the 48-Contiguous State WR drive.

I wish I owned every single one of them as the 10 Prius would be my daily 3.5-seasons driver (it is my mom’s daily driver if you have not yet seen the write-up on her experience from June of 09 yet :)), the HCH-II would be my super mileage cross country car and the Jetta TDI Sportwagen would be my haul all the stuff including the family car with the occasional higher speed jaunt across any lengthy highway distance if needed.

This is a Prius thread and if I had to choose today, I would choose it (Package-III with Bluetooth of course ;)) with the HCH-II and Jetta TDI Sportwagen would be right on its heels.

I hope we are not now confusing you wrt your next vehicle given all of the choices available. Adding to your list, do not rule out the current 10 Fusion Hybrid, 11 Sonata, upcoming 11 Sonata Hybrid, 11/12 Volt, 12 Focus, and 12 Elantra either!

There are some tremendously fuel efficient vehicles on the road today or that will be here in the very near future that would do wonders for your 90% + all-highway commute.

Good Luck and by all means let us know what you finally decide.

Wayne

Thanks again. After reading as all the "good stuff" you guys have written and of course considering my wants and needs I've narrowed it down to either the 2010 Prius or the 2011 Prius.

After reading your latest post regarding the 2011 Prius, and your suggestion that I wait for the 2011 if I can... I can't help but wonder what it is about the 2011 that would preferable over the 2010 (other than being a year younger).

Could you elaborate further on why you'd prefer the 2011 to the 2010?

Thanks,

Robert

Hi Robert:

My thoughts on the 2011 is only due to resale value at some future date. A 2011 may be worth $1,500 or more than the 2010 in 2015 when you are looking at the Prius-IV :)

Good Luck with your 11 Prius if that is your final choice. Its a good solid value and one I doubt you will regret.

Wayne

Thanks for all the help. I recently bought a Prius and have been nothing but impressed. It's certainly an impressive machine. I'm still learning how to drive it and improve my MPG, but thus far have a total of 56 + mpg.

Thanks again for the help, advice and info.

Robert

Hi Robert:

Thank you as another fuel miser on the road is one less fuel sucking pig that could have taken its place :)

Good Luck and I hope you enjoy your brand new 2010. Its a good one!

Wayne