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View Full Version : Hybrids Save Money in the Long Run, Study Finds


tarabell
01-08-2007, 09:23 AM
Hybrid buyers are still the winners when you factor in costs of financing, fuel, insurance, state taxes and license fees, repairs, maintenance and depreciation. (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hybrid8jan08,1,3136501.story?coll=la-headlines-business&ctrack=1&cset=true)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Prius_II_Touring_Edition.jpgJohn O'Dell, Los Angeles Times - Jan 8, 2007

Hybrid vehicles are proof of the old saw that you've got to spend money to save it, a new study shows.

In recent years, studies by Consumer Reports and others have shown that most hybrids won't save owners enough money on fuel alone to make up for their higher initial prices.

But a new study by Los Angeles-based Intellichoice.com, which specializes in automotive cost-of-ownership data, says that hybrid buyers are still the winners when you factor in costs of financing, fuel, insurance, state taxes and license fees, repairs, maintenance and depreciation.

"Across the board, we found that all 22 hybrid vehicles have a better total cost of ownership over five years or 70,000 miles than the vehicles they directly compete against," said James Bell, Intellichoice.com's publisher.

"Hybrids are proving themselves to be an excellent alternative for car buyers," Bell said. "Even when factoring in the additional upfront costs for their purchase, the long-term savings hybrids generate makes them a sensible and attractive purchase."

There is no better example, the study says, than Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius. The study concludes that a Prius owner over five years will save $13,408 over a similar-size sedan that is not a hybrid.

Prius, the five-passenger mid-sized sedan, is the most popular of the 22 hybrid models on the market today. It accounted for about 43% of hybrid sales in the U.S. last year and for about 60% of all hybrid sales since its introduction in 2000.

On average, sedans of similar size to the Prius (non-hybrid cars such as Toyota's own Camry, Honda Motor Co.'s Accord and Ford Motor Co.'s Taurus) cost motorists an average of $33,305 over the first five years of ownership, Intellichoice found. Costs for the Prius averaged $19,897.

The difference, the study says, is that hybrids retain their value better than conventional vehicles, have moderate maintenance and repair costs and, of course, there are those lower fuel costs.

Hybrids also benefit from federal tax credits, which this year can range from $250 to $1,950 but were as high as $3,150 in 2006.

The study based its gasoline prices on last year's average national gas price of $2.26 a gallon. The average dollar savings may go up or down with the price of gasoline, the study pointed out, but the percentage difference in operating costs between the hybrids and non-hybrids would remain constant.

Because they carry both an internal combustion engine and an electric motor, plus a lot of complex electronics and oversized banks of advanced technology batteries to make it all work, hybrid cars and trucks are more costly to buy than comparable non-hybrid vehicles.

The hybrid price difference — or premium — can be as little as $1,000 to as much as $5,000 for some luxury models. The higher purchase prices have kept many people from considering hybrids.

Demand for the vehicles peaked last summer, when regular gasoline prices topped $3.25 a gallon nationally, but has declined as gas prices have fallen.

The hybrids with the biggest five-year savings after the Prius were the new Honda Civic sedan hybrid, the Toyota Highlander sport utility vehicle hybrid and the Ford Escape SUV hybrid, Bell said.

A quartet of "mild hybrid" pickup trucks from General Motors Corp. provided the least cost benefit over five years of ownership, with five-year savings ranging from $2,940 to $3,463.

A mild hybrid is one that doesn't have an electric drive system to augment the internal combustion engine. Instead, it uses its electric power to enable the conventional engine to shut down when the vehicle normally would be idling.

A "full hybrid" system such as in the Prius uses electric drive to boost gas engine performance and to enable the conventional engine to shut down at idle. Most also enable the car or truck to run on all-electric power for short periods at low speeds.

The Intellichoice study, to be released today in Detroit during a media preview of the North American International Auto Show, comes at a time that more automakers are adopting some sort of alternative fuel or power plant strategy to help meet increasingly strict environmental rules and to maintain competitiveness as fuel prices rise.

In addition to gasoline-electric hybrids, many automakers are adding diesel engines, which can offer as much as 40% more fuel economy than similar-size gasoline engines and are much cleaner than in the past.

Several major automakers also are working on development of hydrogen-burning internal combustion engines or electric vehicles that use a drive system powered by electricity produced in an onboard fuel cell by combining hydrogen and oxygen.


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john.odell@latimes.com

Chuck
01-08-2007, 09:49 AM
... (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hybrid8jan08,1,3136501.story?coll=la-headlines-business&ctrack=1&cset=true)There is no better example, the study says, than Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius. The study concludes that a Prius owner over five years will save $13,408 over a similar-size sedan that is not a hybrid....

That was more than I expected and the opposite of CNW's findings.


The threee reason I can find hybrids save money:

The obvious - less gas used
Less use of the ICE under fewer severe conditions
Drivers typically look at the dash to save gas. On any vehicle, driving it hard shortens the life, moderate driving extends it. (another case for hypermiling)

AshenGrey
01-08-2007, 09:50 AM
Of course, if you want to recoup the hybrid premium is a *hurry*, all you have to do is park in a garage that gives a hybrid discount.

I park near the Mitchell Courthouse. A monthly pass for regular cars is $175/mo. For hybrids, it's only $95/month. That's a savings of $960/year. That's got to shave at least two years off the five-year "break-even" point.

tarabell
01-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Here is a link to the Auto Channel's item on this story, which includes Intellichoice's ranking of each hybrid model's cost against its peer group.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/08/033316.html

yesplease
01-08-2007, 10:07 PM
Factor in the cost of battery replacement by a plug-in conversion shop after 150-200k miles, and a hybrid is way, way ahead. The only thing they aren't particularly suited for is lots of high speed highway driving, which is probably why most lead foots report less than EPA.

tbaleno
01-08-2007, 10:25 PM
yesplease, civic hybrid does very well on the highway. Many average drivers are reporting 98% or so of epa on the highway.

Did anyone notice the redefinition of mild hybrid. It used to be mild hybrid was a hybrid that didn't have an ev mode. Now it is one that just shuts the car down at stop (i.e. BAS). I guess that had to do that so they could call the VUE a hybrid without offending honda owners. I bet the prius guys are fuming the IMA is now called a full hybrid.

antrey
01-08-2007, 10:53 PM
Another source of hybrid savings is brake pad replacement. Some evidence suggests that wear is minimal even approaching 100kmiles depending on how the vehicle is driven. Hypermilers can probably make a regular car's brake pads go well over 100k miles as well though:) .

yesplease
01-09-2007, 12:41 AM
Hola tbaleno! Comparing two very similar vehicles, like the Honda Accord six cylinder and hybrid, we see that they have similar mileage over the EPA highway test, 30 and 34mpg. Now the test is at an average of 48mph, which I wouldn't consider to be lots of high speed driving, so odds are this will drop. If you take a look at this (http://bioage.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/autobild1.png) graph from green car congress, you may notice that as speed increases, mileage tends to converge in a small area.

So, even though a Prius gets 20mpg better mileage at 50mph compared to something like the BMW listed, at speeds I consider to be high speed, something like 75-90mph, that advantage is cut in half. Along the same lines, when choosing between a six cylinder Accord, or Accord hybrid for lots of high speed driving, I would probably choose the Accord since the ~2mpg increase from the hybrid probably couldn't be recouped compared to the additional cost over the life of the vehicle. Not that the large majority of Americans drive like this all the time, most average 30mph. It's just that hybrids aren't always cheaper for everyone.

AshenGrey
01-09-2007, 05:31 AM
IMA2 can be called a full hybrid since the HCH2 has a mode of operation in which the IMA pushes the car without help from the engine. It's simply a less robust hybrid design than what the Prius offers. But if IMA-2 had more batteries, the EV mode (10-25 MPH) would last longer.

flatty
10-29-2008, 11:17 AM
This is an ownership cost study, not a 'dust-to-dust'. Again, a narrow cost definition.

The weakness with this est. is that the advantage presented is based on higher estimated resale value, which is a very backend, soft-cost method. Someone estimating today's used car market 5 years ago would be very wrong.

There is no mention of VW diesels, which run about what they cost for <50k mileage 3 yr old.

Unlilke the CMW reports, it sounds like there is a 'story' being told. Fundamentally, new technologies cost more.

BlackUp
10-29-2008, 02:43 PM
i guess the key to the article is that "than the vehicles they directly compete against" statement.
for myself, the Prius was a competitor to the Fit that I just bought.
the article also makes the case that the resale of hybrids was a major factor for the comparison. well.... the Fit's resale is ridiculously high, so i see that as a non-issue with the following comparison.

i know this comparison has been done before, but im bored (home sick from work) and figured i'd give this a try

--2009 prius
msrp (base) $22,000
passenger capacity: 92.6
luggage capacity: 14.4
75,000miles of fuel @ 46mpg & $2.26/gal: $3684
msrp + fuel = $25,684

--2009 honda fit
msrp (base) $14,550
passenger capacity: 90.8
luggage capacity: 20.6
75,000miles of fuel @ 31mpg & $2.26/gal: $5468
msrp + fuel = $20,018

so by using EPA numbers, and ignoring maintenance costs:
at around 312,000 miles (22 years :eek: at 70,000mi/5yr) the cost of ownership of both vehicles would be near equal.
of course, in 22 years the price of gas won't even be close to $2.26/gal, but maybe the $1,000 batteries will skyrocket as well when the rare metals go up in price, or are cut off because of conflict...

i'd hate to see at what mileage the cost of owning a yaris would be equal to a prius

flatty
10-29-2008, 03:09 PM
It mentions that you'll save $13,408 in 5 years or 70000 miles driving a Prius over a non-hybrid.

That's 19.2 cents a mile in savings.

If you guesstimate that the Fit runs at 22 cents/mile ($15k minus $6k resale on $2.60 gas for 70,000 miles), then the Prius costs 2 cents a mile.

Amazing!

xcel
10-29-2008, 03:51 PM
Hi All:

___Flatty, it is the average vehicle, not the Fit. There are only two vehicles that have a lower TCO than the Prius and that is the Fit and Yaris.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

donee
10-29-2008, 05:09 PM
Hi All,

Of course the Prius will get better mileage than the EPA in the real world, and the Fit/Yaris less. A more reasonable combined comparison would be 53 for the Prius versus 28 for the Fit in metropolitan suburban traffic.

And long term gas prices average, say $3.50 based on the experience this year.

End result, Prius $4953 and Fit $9375 for 75000 miles of gas, a difference of $4422.

Also, 75K worth of metropolitan area traffic is going to require at least one front brake job on the Fit. Or another $300 (cutting the rotors).

Drive another 5K miles, and you need a second brake job, this one at $500 (replace front rotors). And probably an alternator repair ($400 ). And a starter repair ($300).

The fuel difference at 80K miles is $4717, plus repairs ($1500) is a difference of $6217.

So at 80 K miles, with those repairs come due on the Fit, the is at Prius $27283, and Fit at $26050. But the base Fit still does not have traction control or an automatic transmission, like the Base Prius. So, they are similar in cost at the Fit/Yaris option level similar to the Prius.

BlackUp
10-29-2008, 07:47 PM
Hi All,

Of course the Prius will get better mileage than the EPA in the real world, and the Fit/Yaris less. A more reasonable combined comparison would be 53 for the Prius versus 28 for the Fit in metropolitan suburban traffic.

I have a pretty hard time getting less than 36 mpg in my Fit in the city. IE: no hypermiling. we all know the EPA number are very conservative now.

Also, 75K worth of metropolitan area traffic is going to require at least one front brake job on the Fit. Or another $300 (cutting the rotors).

Drive another 5K miles, and you need a second brake job, this one at $500 (replace front rotors). And probably an alternator repair ($400 ). And a starter repair ($300).

id agree that the car may need some new pads (20$) but it's doubtful that the alternator, rotors, and starter would fail by 75,000mi

BlackUp
10-29-2008, 08:29 PM
But the base Fit still does not have traction control or an automatic transmission, like the Base Prius. So, they are similar in cost at the Fit/Yaris option level similar to the Prius.

i'm sure we could compute this an infinant number of ways to make any point we would like to, but i do find it interesting

to be fair, you have to upgrade to the navi Fit to get VSA, which is a 1800$ option. but a whole bunch of other options come with that.

VSA is an option on the 2009 Prius. You also have to upgrade to the "1224" trim to have access to that option. ($1950 total, add $1500 to get a security system like the fit)
And dont forget to "man-up" for the ipod connector @ 325$ :D
the transportation cost is 100$ more

it would cost quite a bit more to get in-dash GPS in a Prius, but lets not go there

somewhat comparably equipped
fit: $19,430 (at sport with navi(VSA) + destination)
prius: $26,580 (1224trim with accessory package #3, ipod connector, and destination)

$7,150 more for the Prius


I'll use 36mpg for the Fit, which is very conservative (btw there are people getting over 60MPG in the Fit):
75,000 miles in Fit @36mpg, 3.50/gal =$7,292
in Prius@53mpg =$4,952
$7,150 difference in price - $2,340 difference in fuel - $20 for some brake pads = $4,790 more to own the Prius @ 75,000 miles

flatty
10-29-2008, 10:18 PM
No amount of fuel savings, brake shoes, taxpayer subsidies to foreign companies, battery replacement costs, etc. need be factored in, because none of it will come to $13,408.

The Sponge Bob Math Lesson:

The article concludes that you will save $13,408 over a comparable non-hybrid over 5 years and 70,000 miles at $2.26/gal. gasoline. They suggest a comparable non-hybrid might be the Camry (choose the Accord or Taurus, it doesn't matter).

Purchase:
The Camry lists for $19,100; the Prius for $22,000. The difference is $2900.

Fuel ($2.26/gal - their number):
70,000 miles worth of gasoline in a 25mpg EPA combo '09 4 cyl Camry is $6328. The Prius would cost $3439 at it's 46mpg EPA combo. The difference is $2889.

Total:
The "hybrid premium" minus the total cost of fuel over 70k miles (their numbers) shows that it will cost, disregarding brake shoes and battery replacement, etc.., $11 less to buy and operate the Camry.

How then would the Prius make up the $13,419 difference?

The whole effort for real change is diminished by wild statements like this.

xcel
10-30-2008, 12:33 AM
Hi Flatty:

___Have you shopped for a 2005 Toyota Prius lately? Then do the sponge bob math…

___Good Luck

___Wayne

flatty
10-30-2008, 08:25 AM
Yes. I have family in that business. But, we're working with his numbers out of courtesy. Using the going rates only make the author's math far worse.

Prius sold this summer for $27-28k (they're down quite a bit now). At that rate, the Prius would have to somehow surmount an additional $5-6k -- $17,000-18,000!

Ridiculous.



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