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Hello all! Haven't posted to CleanMPG in awhile. Been busy with life and all that. Anyway I have an "issue" with my 2k6 HCH2 and I wanted to see if others had the same experience.

In December of 2009, I brought my car to the dealer for some maintenance and they said my car needed 4 software updates. They did the updates and now the hybrid system has gotten more stingy. If I have 7 or 8 bars of charge, the car accelerates like it always has. If I have 5 or 6 bars of electricity, there is a lot less assist; maybe half as much. If I have less than 4 bars, there is almost no assist at all.

Is this normal behavior for 2k6 cars with all software updates? How about 2007-2010?

My first guess is there is higher than expected battery failures on the 2k6 cars and so Honda partially castrated the assist to reduce the amount of charge/discharge cycles. As long as the car can make it to 80k miles, then the hybrid warranty runs out and they're in the clear. Mind you, this is just a WAG. I don't claim to have any substantial proof.

Hi Sledge;

I suggest you perform a power reset.

If you do, follow the directions carefully and the car should be back to almost "normal". In any case, please note that the IMA governance routines have changed with somewhat more aggressive regeneration thresholds. In the big scheme of things this is a good thing since the original software implementation was way too relaxed.


Cheers;

MSantos

I just found this:

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A09-058.pdf

This fits the issue almost perfectly. The tech at the dealer said they did not document the update versions the car received in December so they don't know what was exactly done.

I was actually referring to the 09-058 software under the assumption that the techs had applied it along with all other outstanding software updates on the most recent visit.
But as in other cases before, if the software was indeed already applied and you are not seeing the intended results, then a power reset is all you need.

Cheers;

MSantos

I'll be visiting the dealer on Monday and hopefully all will be resolved by then. I'll do a power reset maybe later today (though I have some errands to run).

Update!

Once again I have called it. There are three software updates to TSB09-058. Only one was installed in December.

Sledge: 2 correct TSB guesses
Honda dealer: pwned

My 2006 acts the same as yours since up-date. I am pleased with the way the car performs and manages the SOC. My FE is much improved. Just got in from a 40 Kilo. drive and ended up with 3.3 ltr. per 100 kil. Or 71.3 US mpg indicated. I am very happy camper!
Cheers;

H

Harold, have you then had all the software dates? Or at least a good wack of them? Is your assist similar, ie: more reluctant than pre-update, per the OP? 3.3 is disgustingly good, I've come no where near that.

Hi Mendel;
My 2006 has had one up-date only and I'm not sure which one . No indication on the paper work. It does act like sledge said his was. I find the power is fine. Very short assists as the SOC diminishes. Progressive less as the SOC drops. I find it is perfect for the type of terrain in my area. I can start up a 20 kilometer grade at 4 ltr. per 100 kil. and at the top be at 6 ltr. per 100 k. 4 to 6 % grade. When I return to the starting point at the bottom I never seem to get back to 4 ltr. per 100 kil. maybe 4.3 ltr. per 100 k. I'm not sure why this happens? The results I manage earlier in the day where moderate climbs and not to long. Town and rural 60kph to 80kph max. C.C. on flat stretches.
Cheers;

H

We recently managed 4.1 (in-dash indication) on a trip from North Coquitlam to Harrison Hot Springs, via Lougheed Highway (not freeway), about 200 km round trip. If you're familiar with the area you'll know it's mostly flat, with 2~3 decent climb/descent zones. Traffic was pretty light and we didn't get hung up much. Speed limit typically 80 km/h, lower at various small towns.

Weather was dry, little or no wind, temps around 15C. I gradually drove it down to 4.1, and don't think I could do much better, maybe just a bit.

We've also had one update, soon after purchase, in conjunction with the recall for better protection of the IMA battery terminals. This came via letter. I suspect both of us are not on the same software version as Sledge.

Yes I am familiar with that highway. I lived in Tassawwsen 23 yrs. 4.1 is good for that stretch of road. H

Thanks for that, I was doing my level best to sort-of levitate along the roads, LOL. I know it's no great shakes for hypermilers, but...

You know: I feel like I'm living on borrowed time. Our car's IMA behaves great, in that it's eager to assist/charge. I get the feeling if we ever get an IMA warning light, it's going to be the end of the honeymoon. Step one for the dealership in these cases is apparently to update the software.

It's my understanding that the only way to undo these updates is to put in a new Powertrain Control Module, and the main effect of the software update is to greatly reduce assist/charge.

I'm not saying it's intentional, but it seems like Honda has it's Civic Hybrid customers by, well: you know. You have a $3000 battery nearing it's death, and they say:

"If you want us to diagnose this, step one is to de-nut your car... Shall we get started?"

I hope I get 10yrs out of the IMA and I will be happy. H

Update 2:

After some time behind the wheel, I have discovered that the car behaves just as before the recent updates but with some more assist. This pretty much points to Honda electronically castrating the IMA so that the battery will last longer than 8 years / 80000 miles (it's more in CA, right?) to reduce warranty repairs.

This was my third Honda. There will not be a fourth.

My 2006 acts the same as yours since up-date. I am pleased with the way the car performs and manages the SOC. My FE is much improved. Just got in from a 40 Kilo. drive and ended up with 3.3 ltr. per 100 kil. Or 71.3 US mpg indicated. I am very happy camper!
Cheers;

H

Hi Harold;

Excellent numbers... and BTW, welcome to the 2.8-3.8 L/100km fold !!!

While the software updates may have a hand in here, at this stage I typically declare the ownership break-in period over.
Let me clarify with a very contentious statement: "On the HCH-II, there's no vehicle break-in period, only a driver break-in" :D

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi msantos;
I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. It has taught me allot that car has! :D Still more room for improvement and I haven't purchase a scan- gauge yet.
Cheers;

H

Update 2:

After some time behind the wheel, I have discovered that the car behaves just as before the recent updates but with some more assist. This pretty much points to Honda electronically castrating the IMA so that the battery will last longer than 8 years / 80000 miles (it's more in CA, right?) to reduce warranty repairs.

This was my third Honda. There will not be a fourth.

Sledge, is there a typo in your first sentence?

It sounds like you're saying your car's behaviour isn't much changed, and the IMA motor is actually assisting more (isn't that better?), which doesn't jive for me reading your next sentence.

The assist has increased but not by a whole lot. The tiering (7-8 full, 5-6 partial, 4 little) is the same. This car will be gone by early next year :(

Hi Sledge;

Sorry to hear about your issues. However, I suggest you give the updates a chance and in all likelihood you'll find it OK.

Also, while I cannot offer a good level of authority in this subject (as I no longer work with Honda, at least for now...), I can still try to reassure you that these software updates are neither devious nor were they designed to contain or hide a serious flaw.

In fact, the newly updated governance routines embedded into the updates should have been there from the onset for those of us who purchased the earlier 2006 year models. The informal admission is that the original software baseline was too liniment and tolerant of conditions that were not in our best interests in the long run. While there was no easy way for Honda to have gotten it perfect on the first attempt, they did implement the means to pass the improvements over to the owner base.

This is why, I always encouraged the community to be on the lookout for these updates since the car was unlike any other before it and it would inevitably mature and improve as Honda gets more feedback from the field. This is a big plus if you understand that a software update always trumps a hardware level revision- at least in terms of cost.

Yes, it is for this reason that I eat the dog food I preach and that is why I am going to keep my 2006 at least until the third gen HCH is released. In my view, there's no better car in the market if our goal is to have a smooth highway cruiser with the absolute best HWY FE potential in our market. Heck, not even my brand new 2010 Prius can top it no matter how hard we try. Besides, its been absolutely reliable and dependable even under repeat -40F sessions spanning the last 4 winters. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

The tiering (7-8 full, 5-6 partial, 4 little) is the same.

I thought that is what it is supposed to do? That's what mine has always done.

Jess

Up until I had the one up-date there was not much change with assist or regen, if any no matter what the SOC. I used to go down to no pips on occasion. I may hit three now, since the up-date but haven't been over the Salomo Creston summit since . I think the pack may last now!
H

I wish Honda (and the rest) were required to document and make readily available to their customers:

a chronological summary of software updates, complete with readable descriptions of each update, outlining: it's purpose, what problem it adresses, who needs it, specific VIN's, etcetera.

hi all,

I posted (and whined) about the 09-058 software before-- on my 2008 HCH. I complained loudly to 2 dealers about the serious loss of acceleration under heavy loads (onto freeways, up steep hills), when I have to rev up to 3000 RPM to match traffic flow in this lifetime. I also found an annoying loss of mpg in my city stop-and-go traffic. I tried the reset that MSantos recommended without much effect (though I still appreciate the suggestions). I complained to the Honda tech line, but now help there. However, while trying to re-learn how to drive with the new software, the weather has warmed up a bit, and I'm getting more reasonable performance in city driving (though the poor acceleration still drives me nuts). So in my hands, the new software seems to have increased the temperature-dependent aspects of my car's performance.

Has anyone else noted the increased sensitivity to ambient temp? Or perhaps this only pertains to later models (after 2006?)

Philip

FWIW, the one update we got (I'll check the date, pertainent info, etc, when I get home, and append to this posting), back maybe in spring 2007?, was due to a notice we got from Honda, in the mail. I do recall in the letter, the software update was described as:

"to improve winter driving"

I'm paraphrasing a bit, will check when I get home, but it was something like that.

Addendum:

Checking my paperwork, the letter from honda says in part:

"In addition, based on the actual date your vehicle was manufactured, the software in your vehicle may be required to be updated to improve the cold weather performance of the Linear Air Fuel sensor on the catalytic converter"

And on the Dealership Service Department's invoice there is the following:

REWRITE ECM
PART#: 36531RNAA01

Seat-of-pants observation following this update: mileage improved. Could be just it was early spring, improving weather, but it felt better, right away, easier to get the consumption down, etc.

My IMA can do strange things when it is almost up to running temperature. Before the updates,

I could shift to drive 2 and get assist, but now this will not always work, especially if it is not quite warm enough. H

In the course of my complaining (including completely unhelpful discussions with Honda's so-called 'tech line'), I was informed that the 058 software update was intended to correct a problems with the batteries behaving poorly under cold conditions; I know there have been extensive discussions about whether this update would improve the battery crashes that many folks with 06-07's have been experiencing, although it sounds like the 'fix' was only partially successful. What frustrates me is that my '08 was behaving fine; no battery crashes, which makes me think the update was unnecessary for my model. AND I've just experienced my first battery crash-- sweet! I have renewed sympathy for those dealing with this issue on a regular basis. Bottom line is the car now performs great when fully warmed up, and traveling at ~40 mpg on a flat or slightly downhill slope; not so well in most of my real-world conditions. Sigh.

In the end, I simply had the dealer tech report my complaint to their tech center. Hopefully if enough other owners also do so, Honda MIGHT try to address the problem in the future. I wish more of the Honda mechanics followed these threads!

Philip

I am not having any issue's with my 06 HCH. Maybe one recall. Better FE , Some runs of 80 kilometers with 3.3 ltr. per 100 Kilometers. Car is performing great.:D
H

We get recallibrations fairly often. My wife is driving mostly, and not that vigilant. I would say when weekend driving I might see a recalibration every other weekend.

FWIW, a recalibration doesn't automatically mean the battery is "bad", "crashing", etcetera: just that the car's computer has "lost track" of the battery, ie: it expects the battery to be at a certain state, but actual battery performance leads the computer to suspect there is a discrepancy between theoretical and actual status, so it starts a recalibration.

OTOH, the consensus nowadays is that frequent recals equals possible pending failure. In other words: if the computer's expectations and the actual battery state are often at odds, how come?

I never see them! I think I had one a couple years ago.

H

Hi Phillip;

I know this may not offer much consolation in your case, but these software updates were absolutely necessary for all model years manufactured before the 2009 model update.

With regards to the description/objective of the update:

This software update was originally released in Canada in the fall of 2008 and was commonly billed as an "IMA Battery initial calibration update". The comments that accompanied it indicated that it was meant to improve Winter time FE and performance. This particular software update was also accompanied by other update releases that were supposed to be applied in tandem with the original bulletin update.

Subsequently, Honda support got news of software incompatibilities in part related to mismatched software interactions and soon released a DB update to help the technicians diagnose these and seek the missing software updates.
Is it possible that you are experiencing one of those scenarios? I would not be surprised as this has happened before. Is there a chance that your dealer is willing to contemplate this scenario?

Since I literally "eat the same dog food I 'sell'", I've had the full spectrum of software updates to my cars with no ill effects to report (and I make sure I get all available updates). A local company fleet of 70+ HCH-II's that I track, also had the same treatment and they're all baselining without issues.

Cheers;


MSantos

Since I posted my unhappiness with the previous software update (the 09-058), I thought I'd post a more favorable update-- in the context of the most recent updates that many of us have received notices about.

After the 09-058 update, I really hated the change in my car's acceleration under load, and reduced mph -- this update was also done in the name of preserving the IMA battery, particularly in cold conditions. However, my less-than-positive experience was back in winter. As the season warmed, I noticed my 2008 HCH II performing BETTER in warm weather than it had before the update, even taking into account the well-documented temperature-dependence of the hybrid technology; so there I are.

I would say that the 09-058 did some good under certain conditions, improving my mpg when the car is thoroughly warm, in warm ambient conditions, and favorable roads (40-50 mph), though I'm not sure I would have chosen the trade-off. I HAVE gotten used to the need to hammer the accelerator when getting on the freeway (or accelerating under load), and my overall milage seems to have improved in other contexts. Perhaps it's been a matter of learning how to work around the altered performance. Will the new software update comprise another round of the same?

Philip