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So, I ran (by accident) into a 2003 HCH-I CVT for sale today. The guy didn't really know much about it other than it was a hybrid and got good mileage. Private local dealer; picked it up at auto auction. I went over the basics of the IMA system: design; SoC, regen/charge, assist; how a CVT works, and various other small things I knew off hand. He didn't understand what the "0-120 bar" was on the dash( :confused::confused::eek::eek: ) and said that he was startled by the auto-stop feature when he drove it home from the auction!!

I took it for a small drive, explained what I could on the fly while driving. It was SLEETING (!!!) today, so it wasn't the best weather for doing anything. I gave him the cleanmpg site and showed/told him about my scangauge. He really seemed interested, and said how he got a manual truck so that he could coast in neutral and it got him +4 MPGs. I gave him my card w/my numbers, and he said to "please come back on a day with good weather" and spend some more time with him!

What things should I know to "dazzle" him with as far as the car goes?

SHM/SAHM - does it exist for the CVT?
D/S/L - I read a little more about them on here, but I did know they were Drive/Sport/Low (right?) and gave him a little info on that. Anything more that I should have?
Tires - plan to explain things about LRR and differences in them.
Batteries - explain how/why it works the way it does.


What am I forgetting?

Feathering the pedal to get the lowest RPM and highest MPG, avoid assist because it uses more gas when you have to recharge with regen, zero toe on the wheels, no electric only mode in the first gen HCH (which means no soft glide either -- I believe that's a feature of the HCH-II), and explain that Honda's philosophy is to use a tiny engine for fantastic steady state mileage with an "electric turbo" for when the driver "needs" more torque.

If the car is a ULEV (look at the emissions-rating sticker located on the rear side window), it has lean-burn, which you might want to experiment with by monitoring the "0-120 bar" on the dash.

I'm not real good at this, but the best way I can explain what I see is something like this:

Once you get to your desired speed, back off the gas pedal slightly; this will usually put the car into lean-burn mode. The instant MPG ("the 0-120 bar") should jump incrementally. If you can maintain steady speed, try backing off the accelerator slightly again, and the mpg reading will bump up again (sometimes it will bump up in what appears to be 20mpg increments, from 40 mpg to 60 to 80...on up to 120 in some circumstances). Depending on the terrain and driving conditions, eventually you'll lose speed and have to repeat the process.

I thought that NONE of the CVT's had lean-burn?

They do. Same engine. 2006 up are all CVT. Hal

I thought that NONE of the CVT's had lean-burn?
Some do, and some don't. I'm talking about the generation 1 HCH. The "California" emissions models had a SULEV rating, cleaner emissions because they didn't have lean-burn, and have a different catalytic converter as far as I know. The ULEV models made during those years had lean-burn. I found this out after I had bought my car and was disappointed to learn that I'd bought the "dirtier" version. But the upside with the lean-burn is a slightly higher ability to obtain higher mpg ratings.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/findacar.htm

Look up the listings for the older HCH models and you'll see both lean-burn and non-lean-burn models listed.

Some of the older Honda information pages mention it also.

Some do, and some don't. I'm talking about the generation 1 HCH. The "California" emissions models had a SULEV rating, cleaner emissions because they didn't have lean-burn, and have a different catalytic converter as far as I know. The ULEV models made during those years had lean-burn. I found this out after I had bought my car and was disappointed to learn that I'd bought the "dirtier" version. But the upside with the lean-burn is a slightly higher ability to obtain higher mpg ratings.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/findacar.htm

Look up the listings for the older HCH models and you'll see both lean-burn and non-lean-burn models listed.

Some of the older Honda information pages mention it also.

Thanks for that - I guess the only way to know for sure is to check the VIN on it.

It should have a window sticker stating the emissions level. (i think. google image search finds no pictures clear enough to tell if there is or isn't a sticker. Nobody takes rear 3/4 shots of their cars, it seems.)

The one on my Insight is in the window right behind the driver (lower left corner).

The one on my Insight is in the window right behind the driver (lower left corner).
Same place on the HCHI. ULEV=lean burn, SULEV=no lean burn.

Yup, and if the window sticker is missing, there should be a sticker located on the underside of the hood in the engine compartment, although that one isn't as easy to understand, it's a numerical code that can be used to tell if you have a ULEV or a SULEV.

I'll be stopping by again this afternoon. Thanks for everything!

Hi Nevyn:

___Did you find out which it was? Tom Baleno had an 03 w/ the CVT (ULEV w/ Leanburn) and it could easily pull low 70's at slower speeds on the Interstate.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It said ULEV, so it should have lean burn. They were out at auto auctions when I stopped last; and I've been busy this week. I'll stop today or Monday again if I can.

I'd love to offer up the Elantra in a 1:1; I wonder if he'll bite?

I haven't been able to get back there to talk to him again on a good day. The time or two I stopped by he was out at auction.

While I still want to show him what it can do in good weather, I'm totally NOT buying it. It's a CVT, high miles, and the trip odo was showing ~1500 miles at 39 MPG. That pack has to be beaten SENSELESS for it to be that low, is my current opinion. I'm getting near that in my non-hybrid, so I don't feel it was well taken care of.

While I still want to show him what it can do in good weather, I'm totally NOT buying it. It's a CVT, high miles, and the trip odo was showing ~1500 miles at 39 MPG. That pack has to be beaten SENSELESS for it to be that low, is my current opinion. I'm getting near that in my non-hybrid, so I don't feel it was well taken care of.
Hard to say whether it was well taken care of or not. Some people have better skills than others. Some just drive it, and don't know what they should be doing to get higher mpgs. I've had some crappy tanks with my car, yet it's been taken care of very well. I'm sure Wayne could do wonders with it, while I am merely mediocre, although I try.
Plus, I'm guessing this car's trip odometer reading was predominately during winter, so I wouldn't be surprised by the low trip odo. How many miles are on the car, anyway? With an early model CVT, the thing I'd be more concerned about is the state of the transmission, how it shifts, if it slips or makes groaning noises, etcetera.
I'd take it out for a longer drive to see what you can wring out of it (maybe reset one of the trip odometers), watch how the IMA and the CVT behave, see how the instantaneous mpg gauge reacts to your driving.
At the very least, maybe the seller will learn more about the car.

Another thing I just realized is your location; some parts of PA are very hilly. if the car was driven in those areas a lot, that could be rough on the overall mpg as well as the transmission.

It seemed to shift fine when I drove it, and I *DO* at a minimum want to educate the seller. It's got 133,xxx on it. Hopefully he'll be around this week and I can take more time with him/it.

Hi Nevyn:

___133K miles is really getting up there, isn't it... If it were a stick, than longevity is not an issue but Honda CVT's are touchy to begin with and one with all those miles.

___What did the guy pay for it anyway?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

He has it on the lot for 6795, told me the "real price" is more like 5900. I was debating offering the Elantra in a 1:1 trade, as he said he really like the look and color.

side thought on the 5MT thing...longevity of the tranny would be less of a question, but longevity of the battery pack may be more worrisome - if they lugged it in 1st/2nd then that pack may be nearly toast, right? With the CVT that issue goes away.

Hi Nevyn;

Even on lesser reliable HCH-I CVT transmissions, the key to a long and trouble free life is proper maintenance. Fortunately, the kind of maintenance it needs is mainly frequent HCVT fluid changes with emphasis on the "frequent". On this note, I would choose a fluid change schedule that is far more agressive than the original frequency recommended by Honda.

I agree that owning the CVT model is easier and better for most folks than owning the 5MT since often, we have absolutely no idea how the original owner drove the car during its earlier life.

At least on the CVT model, the PCM had some control over how the battery pack was treated and that reflects directly on the statistically high incidence of battery pack replacements on MT equipped models when compared to their CVT counterparts.

So yes, I would rather buy a used CVT model unless I could get my hands on a MT unit that just had its battery pack replaced. No doubt about it.... since I can "easily control" the dependability of my CVT with frequent fluid changes, but a battery pack replacement is a very significant monetary ding when asked to jump blindly into it. :D

Cheers;

MSantos