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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg "Frankly, we've been working for 30 years to make cars quiet -- never thinking they could become too quiet," (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/22/AR2009092204290.html?sub=AR)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Blind_and_Prius_.jpgPeter Whoriskey - WASHINGTONPOST (http://www.washingtonpost.com) - Sept 23, 2009

Why not more effort on behaviorial road hazards like texting, speeding, DUI? Is the emphasis the easy fix instead of an honest threat assessment? --Ed.

After years of trying to make cars sound as if they were riding on air, engineers are considering how they might bring back some noise. They're trying to make some of them -- those silent hybrids -- more audible.

But how?

A team of engineers developing the Leaf, the forthcoming electric car from Nissan and a front-runner in the race for a mass-market electric car, have recently been presenting their ideas for artificial noises to government officials and focus groups.

Maybe Chime No. 22?

Melody No. 39? ... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/22/AR2009092204290.html?sub=AR

I know this goes against most of the opinion on the board, but then again I get out of my car and walk a helluva lot more than the average American. I think this is a significant hazard, and that the deadly weapons known as cars should announce their approach down our streets and in our parking lots. I'm not suggesting they be loud -- certainly no louder than conventional cars -- but I think a motor vehicle in operation should make more than just tire noise.

"Officials with the National Federation of the Blind, which has pressed the safety issue with automakers and regulators, have advocated that electric cars make sounds similar to those of gas-powered cars."

That really defines it. The Prius was gas powered last time I checked.

FWIW the EV1 had a ped alert noise maker that could be activated as needed on the turn signal lever (sort of a polite way of honking), early models also had a back up warning that was removed in later models as most people found it annoying (drivers and pedestrians.)

:flag:

Darrell,

The concern could be sincere, and I know you are honest, but skeptical about many of the people out their raising this concern. It's just a decade of fearmongering about hybrids - EMF radiation, shock hazards in a crash, the "toxic" battery packs, delusionary people that see hybrids as giant political bumperstickers....just suspect many feel mortally threatend by hybrids for no reason at all.

Add to that, gas engines can be pretty quiet, but it was not biggie until hybrids came out.

Most cars moving at 15-20 mph only emit tire noise anyhow.

And blind people have exceptional hearing. Many hear things us sighted folk outright miss.

EV quietness is a non-issue for me.

So as I read this the chart (and article), a hybrid's stealth only works up to about 6.2MPH and then it's associated noise almost matches that of a standard vehicle. According to this chart from James Madison University (http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/generaldriver/stoppingdistance.shtml) the stopping distance for a car at 10MPH is 5 feet. Simple math puts a 6.2MPH at around 3.1 feet (actually less since stopping distance appears to be non-linear).

I say the chart and the associated stopping distance points out that this is a moot point. Who can't stop in 3 feet!?! Most people won't let anything, including pedestrians, get within three feet of their car.

And blind people have exceptional hearing. Many hear things us sighted folk outright miss.
For years, Dr Bob Peters has taught at Tyler Junior College and done weather forcasts at KTBB. A college basketball accident has left him 100% blind, yet he knows several languages - five I think.

People have attemped to leave his class and he asks them to stay, possibly by name.

Why not just put all this effort into making drivers actually be aware of where they are going and what is around them? Vehicles do not kill people, the operators behind the wheel do.

I'm not sure how serious of an issue this really is (is there one single case of a blind person being struck by a hybrid?) but will admit that a silent vehicle backing out of a parking space could be a hazard to an unobservant or sensory-impaired pedestrian.

The story claims that blind people are endangered because of an inability to hear the quite hybrid or electric cars. What about an inability to hear normal cars due to a nearby, extremely loud vehicle?

I tried to imagine being blind and having a need to walk across an busy intersection. Would it be more dangerous to deal with a few quite cars, or the majority of standard gasoline-powered vehicles that may be drowned out by something much louder?

Think Harleys, jake-braking trucks, leaf blowers, stupid kids and young adults with their booming car stereo systems. These are excessive noise-producers that we all encounter in traffic everyday. If certain people and organizations are truly concerned with the safety of the visually-impaired due to the presence of difficult-to-hear hybrids, I would think that they would also have the same concerns related to excessively loud vehicles and devices making the mass of other vehicles also difficlut to hear.

So as I read this the chart (and article), a hybrid's stealth only works up to about 6.2MPH and then it's associated noise almost matches that of a standard vehicle. According to this chart from James Madison University (http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/generaldriver/stoppingdistance.shtml) the stopping distance for a car at 10MPH is 5 feet. Simple math puts a 6.2MPH at around 3.1 feet (actually less since stopping distance appears to be non-linear).

I say the chart and the associated stopping distance points out that this is a moot point. Who can't stop in 3 feet!?! Most people won't let anything, including pedestrians, get within three feet of their car.

Firstly, the graphic is junk as it's becoming outdated. The graphic relies on hybrids that start the ICE almost instantly upon pressing the accelerator. New hybrids are continuing to push the boundary of how long they rely on battery power alone. Meaning, the decibel rating is going to stay lower for a longer period.

Secondly, you cannot not count on the driver to stop. The whole argument around the amount of noise emmitted by the vehicle revolves around giving the pedestrian an opportunity to avoid the vehicle should the driver not be paying attention.

To me I think this is a no-brainer. Is it possible some hybrid haters might use this argument to their advantage? Absolutely. However, is this something that is worth fighting over? In my opinion no. We all (sight impaired or not) use all available senses to navigate ourselves through our daily lives. Do I feel comfortable navigating silent 3000lb weapons in the parking lot of my local grocery store? No.

I don't really think it matters what we think. Can manufactures are going to put a cheap waterproof speaker outside the passenger area designed to produce some sort of noise, at least at low speeds and, perhaps, when stopped. The power draw will be minimal and the noise will be designed not to be overly annonying yet still somewhat obvious ("ice engine" like noise being the most obvious).

I'm more and more certain its a good idea due to potential litigation issues on EV/PHEV/Hybrid vehicles. Had another teen nearly walk right in front of me yesterday, and she looked angry at my cars daring to be driving on the road near her. However had she been walking against traffic, she would have seen oncoming danger. Or if she would have turned her head before starting to turn her body 90 degrees and cross the street with no warning, she would have also been aware. But that doens't mean her family wouldn't have sued for something that I would have considered her fault. And they might not have stopped with me, they might have then pursed Toyota. Deep pockets make big targets.

I would also like to comment on how to make quiet cars more audible...

I think that we could all agree that a back-up alarm of some sort is a good idea. Large utility trucks are required by law to have them - why not hybrids and electrics? Just a soft beep-beep-beep in reverse would be beneficial and suitable.

As far as driving along at low speeds - Instead of stressing over what the perfect noise would be, how about selecting a larger grouping of sounds and allowing the car owner to select their own personal favorite. Or like ringtones for cell phones, the owner could up-load whatever they wanted the car to sound like while driving at low speeds.

Depending on my mood, I think I would alternate between the original Star Trek theme music, the sound that KITT made in the original Night Rider, or the dialouge from The Matrix when Agent Smith explains to Morpheus his interpretation of the what the human race is. Or maybe "Play That Funky Music Whiteboy!"

I would also like to comment on how to make quiet cars more audible...

I think that we could all agree that a back-up alarm of some sort is a good idea. Large utility trucks are required by law to have them - why not hybrids and electrics? Just a soft beep-beep-beep in reverse would be beneficial and suitable.

As far as driving along at low speeds - Instead of stressing over what the perfect noise would be, how about selecting a larger grouping of sounds and allowing the car owner to select their own personal favorite. Or like ringtones for cell phones, the owner could up-load whatever they wanted the car to sound like while driving at low speeds.

Depending on my mood, I think I would alternate between the original Star Trek theme music, the sound that KITT made in the original Night Rider, or the dialouge from The Matrix when Agent Smith explains to Morpheus his interpretation of the what the human race is. Or maybe "Play That Funky Music Whiteboy!"

Suddenly, the "tuner" community EXPLODES with hybrids, upgrading the "external sound system" with bigger speakers, amps, and subwoofers. :D:D:D


"I just got a new 1,000,000 watt amp for my car noise system! Now I can make the engine sound of a PETERBILT on my Prius, instead of maxing out at a Viper V-10! LOL.

I was thinking the other way....the sound of a mosquito which the person tries to swat at just before nailed. I'll just do one little smile. :)

But thinking along the power route, forget peterbuilt. Imagine the sound a EV Saturn might make on....wait for it......takeoff!

I would also like to comment on how to make quiet cars more audible...

I think that we could all agree that a back-up alarm of some sort is a good idea. Large utility trucks are required by law to have them - why not hybrids and electrics? Just a soft beep-beep-beep in reverse would be beneficial and suitable.
In one of the videos I've seen for the 2010 Prius, it did make a beeping when it was in reverse. It might just be that particular test car, though.

Firstly, the graphic is junk as it's becoming outdated. The graphic relies on hybrids that start the ICE almost instantly upon pressing the accelerator. New hybrids are continuing to push the boundary of how long they rely on battery power alone. Meaning, the decibel rating is going to stay lower for a longer period.
They have been using electric golf carts on resorts, golf courses and and other highly pedestrian venues for a very long time. Why was this never an issue with them? I'll tell you why, because when they are near silent they are at low speeds and people can stop them before they hit something. Are you telling me that people can manage to stop a golf cart (often on grass or sand with little tires and crappy brakes) but you can't stop a car with more advanced four wheel brakes and bigger tires?

Secondly, you cannot not count on the driver to stop. I sure as heck can... I do it MANY times a day when walking downtown, in parking lots, or even while driving in traffic. I still say that by the time speed/stopping distances get unsafe for pedestrians, the noise from tire/wind has taken over from the ICE as the primary alert method.

The whole argument around the amount of noise emitted by the vehicle revolves around giving the pedestrian an opportunity to avoid the vehicle should the driver not be paying attention. The primary argument is what about those that can't see. If you can't see, you need to be carrying a cane, have a dog or some other method of alerting drivers to your condition. If you see a cane/dog/reflector vest/wheelchair in a low speed environment, slow down and pay more attention. The same thing applies when you see bicycles, motorcycles, and scooters in higher speed environments.

To me I think this is a no-brainer. Is it possible some hybrid haters might use this argument to their advantage? Absolutely. However, is this something that is worth fighting over? In my opinion no. We all (sight impaired or not) use all available senses to navigate ourselves through our daily lives.
We all have our opinions, The difference here is that your opinion, if passed on via legislature/ other rule makers, then becomes my problem. My opinion, on the other hand, doesn't stop you from putting a noise maker on your car and allows me to take responsibility for my own actions without the governments interference/"protection". We as humans need to stop asking governments to protect us from ourselves in the smallest of ways and start taking responsibility ourselves (and maybe even those within 5 feet of us).

Do I feel comfortable navigating silent 3000lb weapons in the parking lot of my local grocery store? No.
Then maybe you should slow down and pay more attention in parking lots. We've already discussed stopping distances with respect to speed. Even better, if you're going under 5MPH in a parking lot and can't stop before hitting something, maybe you should park at the very edge of the lot and be the one walking instead.

Why don't we all just make our EV cars sound like ice cream trucks? Everyone loves it when the ice cream truck comes around! Then again, that might encourage kids to run so fast toward our silent rockets of death and neither of us will be able to stop in time...

How many EV capable vehicles are on the road today? Over a million Toyota's alone. Don't you think that if ANYONE had been seriously hurt under this scenario the news would have picked up on it or these, help-us-sell-more-advertising-space, articles/studies would be quick to use the incident as an example. This is a NON-ISSUE, look at the facts (speed/noise/stopping distance) and the lack of any incident reports of it being an issue. Being startled by an EV is not the same as a major safety issue.

As for backup warning sounds, that's a totally different issue as it was a viable problem long before EVs hit the streets. There's plenty of news/incidents to back that up.

Someone please find me substantial proof that EVs plowing into people has been a million vehicle worthy issue. For general comparison, the Firestone tire issue was attributed to 271 deaths/700 injuries with around 1.6 million vehicles driving around with the defect/issue, yet we have well over 1 million EVs and no reported deaths! Perspective PLEASE!!!

(NHTSA Firestone ref:http://www.usautoinjurylaw.com/cases/tires/failure-firestone.htm)

Think Harleys, jake-braking trucks, leaf blowers, stupid kids and young adults with their booming car stereo systems. These are excessive noise-producers that we all encounter in traffic everyday. If certain people and organizations are truly concerned with the safety of the visually-impaired due to the presence of difficult-to-hear hybrids, I would think that they would also have the same concerns related to excessively loud vehicles and devices making the mass of other vehicles also difficlut to hear.

This is a point I've made previously as well. Our hearing is greatly affected by the amount of ambient noise. If all cars were as quiet as hybrids, there would be no problem, however the ambient noise from other cars is what makes hybrids potentially dangerous. Therefore any regulation that requires hybrids to be quiet should also regulate the maximum amount of noise that other cars on the road emit.

Also, someone needs to do a case study to determine if this is an actual risk or just a perceived one. As stated, the braking distance at the low speeds where a car makes little noise are very short. I can't imagine a blind person crossing at places that are not designated cross walks, and drivers are required to stop for pedestrians at such places. Therefore I don't see why this is a major risk, and someone should do a study of sorts to see if it really is a risk. Right now there's no evidence either way.

I think the safety gain of putting a noisemaker on a Prius would be small but real. Blind pedestrian accidents are rare enough that it would take years (decades?) to gather meaningful data. The danger to distracted pedestrians is probably more significant (think of children playing marbles in the driveway when the car is pulling out.)

I have over 5 years driving a very silent EV. I guess I take my responsibility more serious than those drivers thinking cars need to make noise so they can count on the road ahead and behind being clear. In those five years I've not found a lack of sound to be a issue.

A long time ago in drivers ed (to paraphrase) I recall being told, "Simply drive like pedestrians are all deaf and blind and other drivers are talking on one cell phone while texting on another and finishing a six pack. And never ever trust a kid, as they are simply planning to dart in front of you. That phillosphy prevented me from leveling a young boy on a bike just a few days ago. It wasn't a noise issue it was a foolish young boy issue.

It is a dangerous world out there. I take no comfort in transferring my responsibility as a driver to some BS noise maker.

It really isn't blind people you need to worry about it is the cell phone and headset millions not paying attention. Unless you are planning on absurd earth shaking levels of sound a BS noise maker won't make much difference. It might in a controlled lab test but out in the real world it is up to you.

If your in the habit of backing up without checking behind your car for the "marble playing kids" now is the time to change. It doesn't matter if it is gas or silient, kids will be kids.

In our over regulated society I sadly predict the the "sky is falling" crowd might prevail. A real pity as the chance for a real step forward in the reduction of urban noise pollution will be lost.

Now if someone can just make a tire that is truely silent at speed we will have some serious advancement.

They have been using electric golf carts on resorts, golf courses and and other highly pedestrian venues for a very long time. Why was this never an issue with them? I'll tell you why, because when they are near silent they are at low speeds and people can stop them before they hit something. Are you telling me that people can manage to stop a golf cart (often on grass or sand with little tires and crappy brakes) but you can't stop a car with more advanced four wheel brakes and bigger tires?

I sure as heck can... I do it MANY times a day when walking downtown, in parking lots, or even while driving in traffic. I still say that by the time speed/stopping distances get unsafe for pedestrians, the noise from tire/wind has taken over from the ICE as the primary alert method.

The primary argument is what about those that can't see. If you can't see, you need to be carrying a cane, have a dog or some other method of alerting drivers to your condition. If you see a cane/dog/reflector vest/wheelchair in a low speed environment, slow down and pay more attention. The same thing applies when you see bicycles, motorcycles, and scooters in higher speed environments.


We all have our opinions, The difference here is that your opinion, if passed on via legislature/ other rule makers, then becomes my problem. My opinion, on the other hand, doesn't stop you from putting a noise maker on your car and allows me to take responsibility for my own actions without the governments interference/"protection". We as humans need to stop asking governments to protect us from ourselves in the smallest of ways and start taking responsibility ourselves (and maybe even those within 5 feet of us).


Then maybe you should slow down and pay more attention in parking lots. We've already discussed stopping distances with respect to speed. Even better, if you're going under 5MPH in a parking lot and can't stop before hitting something, maybe you should park at the very edge of the lot and be the one walking instead.

I think you took my perspective to be that of a driver. You were incorrect. My perspective is that of a pedestrian.

As a pedestrian I genuinely worry for my and my family's safety that someone is going to "no-look" back over me while I walk to the store. I'm a pretty vigilant parking lot pedestrian as it is and I still almost get run over by people backing up all the time.

That means I cannot count on them to stop if they aren't looking and I must constantly be on the defensive. And if, as you say, you are one of those that can't see and the driver doesn't look, you are going to be run over just the same as someone who can see but hasn't been hyper-vigalant.

Your argument refrences a golf cart (700-800 lbs maybe) at a max of what, 6-8 mph? And you're comparing that to a 3000lb car at electric only 30+ mph? You really think that is an even comparison when ft/lb energy is exponential?

You've made me really think about why I feel this way and why I get nervous just thinking about walking through a crowded parking lot (Target comes to mind). I really think is has to do with having younger children. I have a 2.5 year old. He always holds my hand in the parking lot, and I try to keep him away from the traffic side. But then that just puts him on the side of the parked cars, where at any moment one could start backing up without warning. It worries me just thinking about it.

Honestly I wish they'd put backup sirens on all cars in addition to the forward electric only ones on hybrids.

I'm confident everyone on this board - especially you - are good attentive drivers who use extreme caution especially in parking lots. Not all drivers out there are like that, leading to why I feel these are a good idea; it gives the pedestrian, blind or not, a better chance to avoid a dangerous situation. Can we all agree there are drivers out there that do not pay enough attention as they should? We can say all we want that those people NEED to drive better or they should risk loosing their license yada yada yada, but at the end of the day you just won't make the other guy do the right thing in all situations.

It was garbage day today. At 0600 in the morning you can hear the sweet sound of the back up warning on the trucks from 4 blocks away. No need for a alarm clock.

I'm glad the neighbors Prius has slipped quietly away.

The next step will be to install tail pipes on BEV's and make sure they are spewing out some visible vapor so you'll know they are "running." Can't count the number of times I have used that que on my morning jog.

It was garbage day today. At 0600 in the morning you can hear the sweet sound of the back up warning on the trucks from 4 blocks away. No need for a alarm clock.

I'm glad the neighbors Prius has slipped quietly away.

The next step will be to install tail pipes on BEV's and make sure they are spewing out some visible vapor so you'll know they are "running." Can't count the number of times I have used that que on my morning jog.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like a NIMBY response.

As a pedestrian I genuinely worry for my and my family's safety that someone is going to "no-look" back over me while I walk to the store. I'm a pretty vigilant parking lot pedestrian as it is and I still almost get run over by people backing up all the time.

I have no problem with backup warning sounds as this has been a problem long before EV was in use. "No-look" backup is not an EV specific issue and has little to do with the article in question other than to act as a (poor) foot-in-the-door argument.


Your argument references a golf cart (700-800 lbs maybe) at a max of what, 6-8 mph? And you're comparing that to a 3000lb car at electric only 30+ mph? You really think that is an even comparison when ft/lb energy is exponential?

My argument is as speed gets slower (as it does in all parking lots) the stopping distance and kinetic energy also get lower (exponentially). I think your argument is overexaggerating the danger (by quoting 30MPH) as that's just not what happens in a parking lot scenario.

By the way, a quick look into EZ Go's website puts an electric golf cart up to 1735# (fully loaded) and a max speed of 19.5MPH.(http://www.ezgo.com/personal/leisure/freedom_rxv.html)


You've made me really think about why I feel this way and why I get nervous just thinking about walking through a crowded parking lot (Target comes to mind). I really think is has to do with having younger children. I have a 2.5 year old. He always holds my hand in the parking lot, and I try to keep him away from the traffic side. But then that just puts him on the side of the parked cars, where at any moment one could start backing up without warning. It worries me just thinking about it.

Honestly I wish they'd put backup sirens on all cars in addition to the forward electric only ones on hybrids.

Once again your argument goes back to the "no-look" backup issue which is not an EV specific issue. Maybe it would be a good idea to put backup warning sounds on all vehicles but I don't see this as being directly related to forward travel and EV. One could also argue that internal backup sensors with audible warnings to the driver should be mandatory too but I expect that will only serve to make drivers less likely to turn and look while backing.


Can we all agree there are drivers out there that do not pay enough attention as they should? We can say all we want that those people NEED to drive better or they should risk loosing their license yada yada yada, but at the end of the day you just won't make the other guy do the right thing in all situations.
The problem with your solution is that it will have the effect of taking even more responsibility off the driver and will, just like many other well intentioned safety additions, lead the average driver further into a false sense of security. Just like ABS and Traction/Stability control has often helped a careless driver go too fast into a turn and crash.

"I don't have to worry about pedestrians because I have a noise maker." That's just not acceptable and is a poor solution!

Having a backup sound on all cars makes sense. You could take it further and both limit how quickly you can start reversing (ie. once you stick the car in reverse, the car won't let you start backing up for a few seconds, both to ensure the driver looks around and to allow people who hear the backup noise a chance to move) and a maximum backup speed. Can't really imagine you need to backup faster than 1/4 to 1/2 a mph, however there are exceptions....a driveway that has its driving backing out of the driveway before going forward. In some case you want to floor it one way then the other to get in the street and up to speed between cars. And I'm sure someone would scream at the idea of speed limiters, even if it was only for backing up.

Probably the safest thing will be the sensors that detect objects and prevent someone from backing into or driving into them. They also can force safe following distances and auto brake during panic stops. They seem the next logical choice for mandatory safety equipment. Considering the public first saw them on auto-focus cameras in the 80's, I'm surprised we don't have them on most cars already.