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Drove an Insight last night and this morning, rented from Zipcar (http://www.zipcar.com) while my Jetta is getting some work done.

This is my first time driving a hybrid in quite a few years (I drove a Prius-II a few miles when they first came out, and a 5sp Insight-II around town once when they first came out), and certainly the first time since I learned to hypermile.

I didn't drive it enough and don't have enough experience with other hybrids to give it a full review, but here are some of my observations:

Passenger space: not as "tiny" as some reviewers have made it out to be. I guess I'm used to small cars; at least the cockpit is certainly not as cramped as, say an Impreza. Shoulder, leg and hip room are at least as good as my VWs if not slightly better. Yes, rear legroom is very tight if the rear seats are all the way back, but (1) my wife and I are short so that would be rare and (2) no worse than the VWs. The low roofline, of course, means much less headroom, especially in back. For us short folks the rear seat headroom (admittedly very low) is less of a problem than the constraint it puts on the cargo area. Speaking of which ...
Cargo space: despite the low roofline and high load floor (battery underneath) -- and correspondingly low cargo volume as expressed in cubic feet -- the cargo area is slightly roomier than the Golf's in terms of area. And with the right seatback folded down (my usual bike-carrying arrangement, so my son can still legally ride in the left rear seat), it was a lot easier to stuff a bike in the back than the Golf. Also the load area with seat(s) folded down is much (didn't measure, but feels like a foot) longer than I expected. Won't get anything much taller than 2' in there though. I don't think my dog could stand up in the cargo area with the hatch closed, but that might actually be a good thing.
Cargo configuration: One upside of the high cargo floor is it allows the rear seatback to fold down for a long, flat load floor without first flipping the rear seat cushions out of the way. Instead of the 3 step process (flip up cushions, remove headrests, fold down rear seatback) that I've had to deal with on 6 of the 7 wagons I've owned, you just take 2 seconds and flip down the rear seatback.
Fit and finish: typical Honda quality overall. But I'm not a fan of the ugly light beige upholstery fabric that looks like it will stain if you look at it wrong. When will people learn that beige has always been an ugly interior color and always will be. I hope that Honda is offering gray or blue interiors with at least some of the exterior colors. Also the doors do feel "tinny" compared to the solid bolted-down feel I've gotten used to on my VWs, but no worse than the five Civics I've owned, anyway. I'm fine with it if it means saving a couple hundred pounds of dead weight.
Appointments and options: The car I drove was clearly an LX. I think it's pretty weak to leave seatback pockets out of any modern car, but something I could live with. Also the omission of cruise control seems incredible in today's market, but I never use CC and personally would be fine without it. It's pretty clear Honda doesn't really want to sell very many LXs. Upside for me is that given consumers' pickiness these days, I'm sure that the few LXs that do sell today will resell for a very attractive price 5 years from now when I'm in the market for one.
Suspension: better than most economy cars, with a nice taut feel, flat cornering yet good small-bump compliance. Better than any of the Hondas I've owned in the past, and on par with my VWs.
Actual fuel economy: Over 25 miles of urban driving, I got an overall 49mpg as indicated on the aFCD, including the first couple fuel-sucking "learning" miles. A 5 mile round trip to a local park with my son netted 52.3mpg, and a 13 mile round trip to drop him off at school this morning (plus a couple extra miles), which included about 800 feet of climbing and descending, averaged 50.2mpg. Hopefully I'd do better with practice as I learned how to work this car.
Instrumentation: The blue/green dash lighting based on instantaneous FE is nice, but I would have liked an actual iFCD readout which I couldn't find on this LX. I kept the center display set on the graphical power-flow diagram so I could see which parts of the system were engage. Unfortunately it means 4 button-pushes on the steering wheel control to toggle between this and the aFCD display. This car definitely needs an SG plugged in to really know what's going on. Also, the tachometer could use a finer grain. I like the floating mph display, although going from analog to digital is a bit of an adjustment for me.
EV assist mode: I was surprised to see how often I found myself in this mode at 25-35 mph, ICE spinning but not delivering power and the electric motor doing all the work. As msantos reported, it is difficult to engage a true glide in these conditions, without at least a small amount of either assist or regen going on. As I tried to get into a real glide (without shifting into N, anyway) I found the display rapidly toggling back and forth between the two. That concerned me until I looked at the regen/assist gauge to the left, and I realized that the amount of regen or assist in those conditions was quite small. Still, I know EV assist is not efficient, so I tried to limit it unless SoC was high and I knew I had "free regen" opportunities coming up.
Hill climbing: as I mentioned, the drive to my son's school includes at least 500 feet of climbing (mostly moderate) on the way there, and about 300 feet (steeper) on the way back. I was mostly able to keep the dash lighting in the green and the assist fairly modest on the more moderate parts of the climb (3-5%). Seems to me that the ICE should be capable of fully moving the car up this grade pretty near the optimal point on its BFSC map without engaging assist at all, but of course we have no control over that.
CVT: I like the idea of a CVT, but I'm not a fan of how the engine revs rise and fall as you accelerate, perhaps in Honda's attempt to simulate driving in a "normal" car. My attitude is if the transmission is continuously variable, for heaven's sake let it vary continuously so you can get the maximum benefit. Also, acceleration to 15mph felt kind of choppy at times in a way that I would normally associate with a rough-running engine, but which I suspect my be attributable to the CVT. All in all, I would of course love to have an MT, but I could definitely live with the CVT.
Heavy acceleration: I haven't the slightest idea how fast this car is. I don't think I ever exceeded 2500 rpm, and rarely exceeded 2000.


Bottom line: wish I were a "new car" person, because this car would be the top of my list. The LX's instrumentation is intuitive but could use a little augmentation, a role which an SGII can fill easily enough. Biggest pluses for me were the suspension (ride vs handling balance), cargo flexibility and of course the promise of Honda reliability. Only really significant minus (from my perspective) is the low roofline and its impact to the rear seat and cargo area height. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the improved cargo space of the Fit Hybrid (if/when we get it).

Update: Looks like the Jetta needs to stay at the shop overnight. I'll be renting the same Insight again tonight. Any tips?

One thing I've gleaned today from reading some of the HCH and Insight threads on these forums is that if you really want to coast or glide, you can just put the tranny in N without doing any damage (and if desired, FAS it) instead of trying to feather in the glide using the throttle. There were a number of times today where I wanted to maximize coasting distance and didn't want EV-assist draining the battery.

So a couple more questions for the experienced IMA folks (I'm assuming the Insight and the HCH are largely similar in this respect): Is FAS beneficial vs. (barely-on) EV assist? And if I do FAS it, will it stay off or will the ICE restart automatically if the computer decides maintaining the 12V system has lowered the SoC too much?

...
So a couple more questions for the experienced IMA folks (I'm assuming the Insight and the HCH are largely similar in this respect): Is FAS beneficial vs. (barely-on) EV assist? And if I do FAS it, will it stay off or will the ICE restart automatically if the computer decides maintaining the 12V system has lowered the SoC too much?

FAS is the ultimate route to the greatest FE but just like all great and powerful tools, it needs to be used strategically and with moderation... unless we want the SOC to take a steep dive, which is especially harsh on the HCH-II and Insight II.

With practice and patience, even a minimally/crude assisted glide pattern will be less costly provided that we are judicious in our SoC management and we leverage the built-in features of the car which unlike FAS, leaves no secondary ill effects.

For instance, right after keying ON on a FAS, the gas engine will insist on consuming fuel at a much greater rate than the rate it was consuming when it was keyed-OFF. This guzzling lasts for a short while and this happens because a total system initialization has taken place and you're back to square one.

The other problem is that a FAS is a literal power hog when done frequently. Sure you can get great numbers when it is done expertly, but the SoC will pay the ultimate price and that is something you don't want to do often especially if you actually own the car.

Thirdly and of less relevance is that a proper key OFF will need a delayed Key ON otherwise the ICE will bounce back on if done too quickly. Also, while you wait the car is rolling and MPGs are not being recorded.

In most cases I would recommend tuning that foot to induce a better soft glide. With time most people will do it easily without a problem. In my view, this is one of the great features the previous Gen HCH and CVT Insights did not have that actually works quite well. ;)


Cheers;

MSantos

Great, thanks for the feedback.

What about NICE-ON coasting? If I'm on a long gradual downhill (steep enough to coast, but not steep enough to want to brake or regen) am I better off putting it in 'N,' or soft-gliding with the accelerator pedal?

In a situation like that, I would usually choose a soft glide and especially a FAS if the covered distance is long enough and my SoC is good.

Since I had it all day, on this second rental I took off for lunch and got some highway segments in. Without trying too hard I found myself getting mid-50s on the highway at 55-60mph. 67.2mpg on the segment from my son's school to work, which involves about 6 miles along a 35mph parkway with (usually) pretty good light timing. And 51mpg overall over 82 miles of driving, including a fair bit of stomping on the accelerator to see what she could do.

I very much enjoyed driving the Insight. I could totally live with the car. A few non-deal-killing annoyances:

No apparent way to see FCD and vehicle mode (particularly whether or not the ICE is getting fuel) at the same time. I did finally figure out where iFCD is (bar graph below aFCD) but that and the mode display are 4 button clicks apart and I found myself constantly switching back and forth.
The sound quality of the stereo sucks. BAD. Way too boomy with upper bass, and the treble's not very clean. I don't expect a standard stereo to match the volume level of my VWs' monsoon systems, but I do demand much better sound quality at more moderate levels. A speaker upgrade would be in order if I owned one.
I do like how if you stomp on the pedal, the CVT abandons its usual rise-and-fall behavior, gets out of its own way and lets the engine rev to 6000rpm and hold it there while the car accelerates. Reasonably fast.
Boy is this thing sssslllloooooowwwww off the line. Guess I'm spoiled by MTs with the ability to slip the clutch for quick takeoffs -- even our 82hp Volvo diesel (0-60 in 18sec) was quicker from a dead stop. Hard to imagine there's a high-torque electric motor helping out. As I mentioned it takes off reasonably quickly once it's above 10-15mph ... most of the reason for the Insight's 14sec 0-60 time is the wasted seconds just trying to build up those first few mph.
I'm beginning to wonder if Honda's assist-even-under-light acceleration programming always yields maximum FE. That's probably fine when you've got a topped-off battery and extra juice to burn, but when your SoC is down to 50% the thing still wants to kick in the assist even under light acceleration, just leading to a forced charge later. I see that light throttle is the key to good FE with this car as it's currently programmed, but it's hard for me to imagine that the engine is ever in optimal BFSC when driven that way. Seems like the mpg could be even better if the assist were sometimes less aggressive and the ICE were actually allowed to do some more actual work (with less dipping in and out of the pack) under some circumstances.

Hmm- this really sounds like a fun little car. When they first came out I went to look at it in person. I didn't have time to drive it though- but did examine it both inside and out. I didn't find it too small either. The one I looked at was a loaded EX with Navi- in the new dark grey color (polished metal metalic i believe) - it really looked nice.

I was not a fan of the HVAC controls layout.

I actually think that if it was not for the fact that my wife would kill me, I'd prob get one. Problem is that I just got my civic 12 months ago. Of course my plan would be to keep them both ;-)

Hmm- this really sounds like a fun little car. When they first came out I went to look at it in person. I didn't have time to drive it though- but did examine it both inside and out. I didn't find it too small either. The one I looked at was a loaded EX with Navi- in the new dark grey color (polished metal metalic i believe) - it really looked nice.

I was not a fan of the HVAC controls layout.

I actually think that if it was not for the fact that my wife would kill me, I'd prob get one. Problem is that I just got my civic 12 months ago. Of course my plan would be to keep them both ;-)


forgot to say that I can't wait to actually drive one now...

nice-on isn't the best technique with the 2nd and 3rd gen IMA HCHII and HI2 unlike the other hybrids N doesn't keep the engine off

they do have valve idle where the car consumes no fuel and the cylinders shut completely at all speeds over 10 mph when in a glide, vs burning fuel in N

HCHII stomps them bad. They ride better, turn better and blow want to be Insight away in the hands of a skilled driver concerning MPG. While I have issues with our HCHII concerning the craptastic worthless CVT. Honda didn't do much better with the so called Insights CVT. It's still junk at a biblical level. Honda needs to buy there CVT's from Nissan. Nissan at least try's to make them right. It's down right stupid how Honda can make these wonderful engins and back them up with a so so IMA system and then junk the car out with a CVT. Just mind blowing. While we don't practice stomping on the gas pedal here. If you do in a CVT Honda you are rewarded with a blistering fast tach and no go go. You have a ICE and secondary setup that is completely ignored by Honda. You can fake shift it and pull every CVT trick known to man. and you look at the tach in relationship to your foot and you see a marketing dept. telling the engineers what to build, and lets not even think of the worthless acct'ing dept.

And why for the love of god would they hang the Clarity front end on it? Talk about ugly! Big old Bull Dog nose on a cheap arse over priced Fit. What are they thinking. One only has to look at the current Accord and wonder.

Insight want to be is a joke! And they are not selling here at all. I know all of my local dealers still have cars on the lot from there very first shipment.

Yota may have woke up from whats been read in the news as a company vision. I fear Honda is still way off track. What is Fit hybrid to be with so called bastard Insight in production. We have hopes HCH will step up a tad and if Honda does not blow it CRZ will be a car members here will own. If they don't blow it! I will own a CRZ,,, but only a second year production unit. And then it will be only be purchased after all hold back and I get into there back room money real deep.

Honda really needs to pull there head out. Riding on the coat tales is getting old.

Yota may have woke up from whats been read in the news as a company vision. I fear Honda is still way off track.

Honda may be returning to its roots, however slowly it may be. I was reading elsewhere earlier this week that plans for rear drive and the V8 powerplant have been terminated. The Acura supercar is dead, too. The article stated that there is some leadership change happening at the company, and the project priorities seem to be shifting around a bit.

I was chatting about Honda with a friend a couple of weeks ago. I said that I remember the old ads from the 80s - "Honda. We make it simple." And the ads were accurate. Hondas of the day were simple, durable little cars that offered great fuel economy and didn't ask for much maintenance other than the 60k mile swap out the rubber band they use to drive the camshaft. I heard that back in the old days, Honda vehicles were shipped to dealers with no radio, and the dealer would install the radio the customer wanted, else leave the plastic dummy plate in place. All the speakers were the same size, so the customer could have two or four installed, depending on the radio. The harness was already there, but the parts were installed separately. "Simple".
Driven by the promise of sales, they pressed into new markets by beefing up the cars - both in size/weight and in equipment/pricing. Today's Civic is the size and weight of a 30 year old Accord. The Fit is close in size to a 25 year old Civic, but necessarily weighs more due to modern safety regs. But the Fit seems to be the real "Honda" in the lineup. It's a roomy versatile car that does 99% of what any family could ask of it. The Accord has sadly become a Buick - right down to its dash that has more buttons than George Jetson's Uniblab work computer.

The Insight doesn't have to go too far to become a true "Honda". I won't second-guess the manufacturer's pricing strategy, but it is apparent that it's not working very well in the current economy. Reading the review of the OP, it is apparent that the car does many things well. And it does have its drawbacks, as any car does. I am not a fan of CVT technology either, and I suspect Honda chose it for packaging (compact transaxle) as well as efficiency benefits. If they can lower the MSRP (with or without removing content), or offer low/no interest financing, they can bolster sales. Nothing short of $4 gas will cause a stampede into showrooms. But anyone considering a hybrid can be swayed away from the Prius and into an Insight-II if the difference in the monthly payment is significant enough to motivate the purchase decision. It will be interesting to see how Honda addresses these challenges.

Sorry didn't see your reply until now, MaxxMPG. I think you're right that the Insight is close to being a "real Honda" but could use a few tweaks. Biggest of which, as I mentioned in yesterday's news thread about Insight sales, would be a $2k drop in price.

As it is, the Insight looks pretty good until I remember that I can get a comparably equipped Fit for $6000 less ($7500 less for those who insist on cruise control and are forced up to the Insight EX). Fit offers quite a bit more cargo space too, and decent fuel economy for a non-hybrid with its capabilities.

FWIW, I took an HCH-II out for a spin today. Only put 7 miles on it, but I thought the ride and handling were comparable to the Insight. The car did have a slight but noticeably more solid feel to it. At 44mpg indicated for a suburban loop with long lights and some unanticipated forced charging, I don't think I did quite as well as I would have in an Insight in the same conditions. The HCH that I drove lives in the parking lot of the office complex where I work, so I'll have to take it out for a longer lunchtime drive comparable to what I did with the Insight last week, just to see if I can do better with more familiarity. I do like the fact that you can see aMPG, iMPG, assist/recharge level and battery SoC all at the same time, something you cannot do in the Insight. The HCH lacks the Insight's graphical MFD but if I can see those 4 variables I'm in pretty good shape.

...At 44mpg indicated for a suburban loop with long lights and some unanticipated forced charging, I don't think I did quite as well as I would have in an Insight in the same conditions. ....

That is a good observation. However, it may also help to note that the Insight II tends to overestimate its displayed fuel economy by up to a few MPG's while the HCH-II is actually the other way around.

Next time you take the HCH-II for a loop try placing it in target speed and feather your foot into the 75+ MPG range. Keep it there as best as you can and you'll find yourself in the "beyond Insight" territory. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

Will do, and thanks for the tip.

So far, I've been overall happy with the 3300 miles we've put on our I2. THe one thing I've noticed is the ECO system makes it sooo much easier for even the average person to get great FE. As for the storage space, there's a lot of it with the seats down but I still wasn't able to fit my dog's cage into the back without disassembling it. With ECO off, I've still managed to get into the mid 50's and beat my mpg with ECO on in experimenting the few times I've gotten it away from the wife.

Is it nowhere near the 1st en insight, yes. Will it have a broader appeal? Yes, if Honda can get it's pricing and marketing act together. Toyota has done a much better job at marketing, from the TVs at the pumps of area gas stations to that tune on the TV commercials that still manages to get stuck in my head.

As for returning to the focus of Honda corporate, it may very well be the case with the I2. However, expanding available accessories so we have options like in Europe and Japan may help the I2 compete with the Prius II, which is much more attractive to those who have an appeal for the latest tech and gadgets.

I've been happy with the ride so far, other than the occasionally noisy engine, and I would recommend the car. That being said, I'm leery of buying another Honda given their seeming lack of development of the IMA system (shrinking for cost savings vs expanding EV capability) and my concerns about he long-term viability of my IMA battery in the HCH II. The prius developed from Gen II to Gen III with new features and expanded capabilities. The I2 really didn't add much over the HCH II beyond what is largely an engine management system (ECO) and a hatchback with foldable seats. If the CRZ or next gen Civic is more of the same, I may be looking for a Toyota in a couple of years.

Update: drove a Prius-II today on a 22 mile trip that included similar suburban boulevards plus some highway driving. More notes now that I've driven the "hybrid standard":

The Insight and HCH do indeed handle and corner better than the Prius, but not by as wide of a margin as the press maybe make it out to be. I do prefer the tighter ride, more solid cornering, and superior steering feedback of the Hondas to the Prius, but I'm surprised to find myself saying I'd be more than satisfied with the Prius's driving dynamics. Not something I could say about the current Corolla, whose Toyota Electric Steering doesn't track anywhere near as well as the Prius'.
The Hondas really are dogs off the line, whereas the Toyota can bark the tires and launch itself pretty well (and the engine sounds a lot better while doing it too). Honda has some serious work to do on both its CVT and on its engine refinement. I know the CVT seems futuristic and all, but I honestly wonder if we wouldn't all be better off if Honda put a high quality 6sp AT in these cars. (Of course a 6MT would be far better, but that ain't gonna happen). The Insight's CVT is programmed to simulate driving a multigeared transmission anyway, so what exactly is the point of it anyway?
Although the Insight feels tinnier and less substantial, I actually like the interior materials better. Not impressed with all the shiny black plastic in the Prius.
I like the Insight's gauges the best of the 3 (and I only drove the LX!) The Prius' gee-whiz color display sure is purty, but doesn't convey any more useful information, and you still can't see average FE and current engine/charge/power flow state in the same view. And I really don't like having to use the MFD to make any significant changes to the radio or climate control settings. The Prius has this normal sized radio that only has a couple of buttons and no display whatsoever -- WTF?
Wow, the Prius really is a LOT bigger. Maybe an illusion, but the Insight's cargo area seems a bit bigger (or at least taller) than the Prius'.
I was impressed with the FE of both Hondas, but when I got in the Prius holy WOW! I got 65.7mpg on a mixed 20 mile loop of about 1/2 suburban arterials and the other half split between rural roads and 55mph freeway. Similar driving with a similar amount of practice got me 50-52mpg in the Insight, although I'm sure on a pure highway trip the gap between the two would tighten up a lot.
The Prius seemed a lot less assist-happy than either Honda. I could accelerate reasonably (i.e., slower than the average driver but not really holding up traffic) without dipping into the pack, whereas accelerating the Hondas without assist is like watching cold molasses drip out of a jar. It may have been my imagination, but the Toyota seemed to vary this based on SoC -- when the battery was full, it seemed to know there was more juice available and seemed to dip into it more, and was a little stingier when SoC was lower. I could be wrong though.

I hope the above doesn't make it sounds like I'm changing my mind and deciding I don't like the Insight. Don't get me wrong. I like the Insight a lot. I'm a Honda fan and probably always will be. For $18k I'd like the car a whole lot more, too. The Prius was nicer and more fun to drive than I expected, however.

Still, I can see why Toyota is blowing Honda away in hybrid sales. What follows is going to sound like a tall order, but the marketplace is what it is. If Honda's going to keep up they need to:

(1) Improve the programming of their hybrid controller (see below).
(2) Do something about the CVTs. Honda has had CVTs since 1996 when the HX debuted -- have they always been like this?
(3) make their hybrid engines more refined like those in other Hondas.
(4) drop the price of the Insight.
(5) figure out how to make the HCH's rear seats fold.


About (1): I don't see the point of Honda's overly aggressive assist. I can understand the logic of wanting to make sure that juice created by regenerative braking actually gets used, but if the battery's already below 50% SoC all you're going to do is end up with an inefficient forced recharge at a less optimal time. The Hondas' SoC seems to bounce around a lot more than the Prius', maybe a combination of aggressive assist and a smaller battery, but it seems wasteful. And it seems reasonable to assume that assist at low to moderate throttle would inhibit the engine from getting into its optimal BFSC state by lessening the load, with a resulting penalty in efficiency. I'd like to see it programmed like I thought I experienced in the Prius (again, I may have imagined this), where assist comes more readily at high SoC and you've got juice to burn, but otherwise only kicks in if the engine is being pushed past optimal BFSC.

I'm only going to comment that the Honda engines may actually have a lot less oomph than you expect. I turned off the assist in my Insight with a Calpod switch and it really didn't have a whole lot more to give than the torque I experienced when staying just below the threshold of assist. It is workable but by no means "fast." That's why it gets such fantastic mileage on the highway -- it really is that small.

What year Prius did you try?

Can't say for sure, since it was a Zipcar rental with 40k on the clock. I'm guessing probably an '08, give or take a year or so.

Sean, if the engine really is that low-powered maybe it already is at optimal BFSC. The new Insight's ICE has about the same hp-to-weight ratio as the I-I. So maybe the IMA motor is really there to boost power as much as to help mileage. After all, the old '92-95 CX with the 70hp motor got 42/46mpg, practically as much as either the VX or the current hybrids. Where the hybrids beat the CX is on acceleration, not mpg.

As it is, the Insight looks pretty good until I remember that I can get a comparably equipped Fit for $6000 less ($7500 less for those who insist on cruise control and are forced up to the Insight EX). Fit offers quite a bit more cargo space too, and decent fuel economy for a non-hybrid with its capabilities.

Yep das true.

BTW is there a more detailed thread on the site with a more how to write up on the Insight II to use moderate and advanced methods for best FE. After reading this it was not clear at all how FAS works? It's automatic so how do you restart when rolling??

If you are referring to a soft glide, just press the accelerator and the engine will start up again. If instead you mean a manually initiated FAS (via the key), you have to crank it with the key. It will start in Neutral.

I believe Honda designs their hybrids for hyway travel and not so much for city use? Honda does not put a big enough electric engine or power pack in their Hybrids for city travel.We should stop trying to compare them to the Prius? Prius is designed for both segments of travel. I think the original Insight was a true Hybrid and I believe the best ever built! We were just too dumb to get by the two seat only thing! Two seats is all we need 90% of the time. Hal