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I just got to drive a Jetta TDI... WOW!!!

I may have just driven my next car. Plenty of spunk, It handles! And the mpg was fantastic! The car was well broke in with 10k miles on the OD. What fun. Mixed driving, and I mean very mixed, ave 50 mpg out of the car. It was comfortable, quite, all most insulating.

The car belongs to one of my customers. They did buy it new at invoice. It is a base model with navi. They have averaged 46 mpg with it since purchase. They drive a lot of hwy. Will see how it holds up over the next year or so. They report no problems with the car at all.

I was very impressed with the car. Falls under OMG. If we just hadn't bought the HCHII I would be trading the MZ3 right now.

I was very impressed!!!!!! I don't think there is any need to look forward to CR-Z or any other hybrid from this point forward. :)

What year was it, Jeff? :)

I'm still sad we can't get the iCDTi over here...

What year was it, Jeff? :)

I'm still sad we can't get the iCDTi over here...

09, Dark silver, gray interior, 6MT that just flicked through gears. We put 100 miles on it and did top of calcs for the mpg. He had just filled it up 2 miles from the house. So I refilled it at the same place/pump. They only have one oiler pump there.

If VW can make it work, it's clear Honda does not want to make it work. I'm about to blow Honda off as the new Asian GM anyway.

If I had been driving it like the wake me when we get there HCHII I'm sure I would have been in the high 50 mpg range with the A/C on.

I was very impressed with the car. Now the question is,,, will it turn into the typical VW nightmare I see so much of here.

My understanding is that they have gone with a new electrical supplier -- so those little gremlins should be gone.

As for maintenance, from what I hear you are still best off looking for a support network rather than relying on the dealer. It seems most of them still haven't a clue about proper diesel care.

But it still idles at stops, right?
.
_H*

Sounds good.
I've read that the base TDI stationwagon is supposed to MSRP at $24000- I wonder what the actual price of a TDI SW is? Is the Passat bigger than the Jetta?

A TDI SW would be a pretty good USA road trip vehicle.
Charlie

But it still idles at stops, right?
.
_H*

Did not notice a auto stop, nor did I FAS it.

I just requested a quote from the local dealer via e-mail. I don't expect a reply because they known to be A-Holes. I should not go there. But what the hey.....

Hi Jeff:

___The Jetta TDI SportWagen we drove begins at $23,870. Added was DVD NAV for $1,990, Power Panoramic Sunroof for $1,300 and 17" alloys for $450. Delivery was $700.

___It was a hell of a ride if I do say so myself ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

But it still idles at stops, right?
.
_H*

A diesel engine at idle doesn't burn fuel at anything like the rate of a gas engine. A gas engine has to do a fair amount of work to draw air against a closed throttle plate, which is why you see ~0.3gph or more even in an engine as small as our 1.5L powerplants. The diesel doesn't have this problem since the intake path is completely free and load is controlled by the amount of fuel injected. From what I've read you are looking at less than 1/3 the consumption rate for a comparable diesel.

you see ~0.3gph or more even in an engine as small as our 1.5L powerplants

My 6.6L diesel only burns .25-.3 gph at idle. So a 1.xL diesel might be more like .1gph or less?

The old 1.9 TDI is right around .10gph at idle. The 2.0 seems a little thirstier, maybe around 0.15gph as a guess.

Sean, you're right about dealer care for the TDI's. At the very least, find a dealer that knows how to work on these cars. Some don't even know what oil to use :eek:

I was so impressed with the TDI I called Excel! I was impressed to beat hell with it. When my wife got in from her shopping, bill pay, library, video store, yard sale run in her HCHII. I told her,,, " I have found my next car " It's not a BMW 1 or M3 a CR-Z or a 400+ hp Holden GM import. It's a Jetta that begs to be driven. I showed her the car on the net and she loves it!

The old 1.9 TDI is right around .10gph at idle. The 2.0 seems a little thirstier, maybe around 0.15gph as a guess.

Sean, you're right about dealer care for the TDI's. At the very least, find a dealer that knows how to work on these cars. Some don't even know what oil to use :eek:

All dealers are good for is warranty work! As for idle, I'm sure there is not a gasser that can beat it [none hybrid]. No auto stop. But what the hey, It didn't seem to understand the A/C was on full tilt boogy either. It was a German/Mexican plus MZ3 wonder.

.25-.3 GPH for 6.6 liters! My 5.7 Chevy burns .6-7 gph at idle-the 3.5 Honda burned .4-5 gph(ac on and off)-the 5.6 titan was the same .6-7gph. The 1.8 liter Prizm(2001 corolla) burned .2 gph.

Charlie

In 1982 Mercedes eliminate the throttle butterfly on their diesel engines. The resulting increase in fuel mileage was 7%.

Before they eliminated the throttle butterfly the engine would continue running when there was a vacuum leak in the central locking system. When a door vacuum servo diaphragm failed the air being sucked through a 2 MM hose would be enough to keep the engine running and you had to open the hood and push the fuel shutoff lever at the fuel injection pump to turn the engine off, obviously a real problem for some drivers not completely familiar with the system, especially those who had not read the owners manual!

While pumping losses are a certain portion of the increased efficiency of diesels, the real source of increased efficiency is the much higher compression, and the fact that diesels will run as lean as 50 to 1 air-fuel ratios.

For the sake of comparison and understanding consider a diesel versus gas engine with each having 10 square inches of piston surface area. The diesel has a 22 to 1 compression ratio and the gas engine is 10 to 1.

At 0 manifold vacuum on the gas engine the theoretical highest compression would be 14.7X10X10. Thats 1470 pounds of compression pressure (atmospheric pressureXsurface areaXcompression ratio).
The diesel having no manifold vacuum would produce 14.7X22X10 pounds of compression pressure. Thats 3234 pounds of pressure.

When the fuel is introduced and ignited the heat of the combustible mixture increases from the temperature of the compressed mix to the temperature of the ignited mix.
Remember when you compress air the temperature increases before combustion occurs, so the compressed mix temp is higher in the diesel that in the gas engine before combustion.

In every IC engine the power developed is the difference in the compression pressure and the combustion pressure. This is the "leverage" that provides power on the power stroke. Since diesel fuel has more energy per unit of volume this gives some advantage to the diesel engine.

Compression energy is much more significant than the energy required to pull air past a throttle restriction, which can only be a single atmosphere of 14.7 PSI even if the throttle plate was a perfect seal and the engine sucked every molecule of air out of the manifold.

The reason why the large diesel engine uses so little fuel to idle is the much greater leverage on the heated misture when it ignites in a diesel engine as well as the greater BTU content of the diesel fuel itself. Starting at 22 to 1 the mixture expands to about 7 times its compression pressure in either diesel or gas. Since the diesel starts with 3234 PSI versus the gas engine with 1470 PSI you can see the combustion pressure is much higher in the diesel which means much more pressure to push the piston down and create power.

The other side of the equasion is the considerably more work is required to compress the air in the diesel than in the gas engine, and the mass of the pistons and connecting rods as well as the crankashft and other parts in the diesel need to be much greater than in the gas engine. This creates greater reciprocation losses in the diesel compared to the gas engines.

Comparing all the positives and negatives in gas and diesel engines, especially the much greater compression and higher btu content of the same volume of fuel, it should be fairly easy to understand why the diesel engine is more efficient. Above and beyond those two basic advantages is the fact that the diesel can run at AF mixtures as high as the previously mentioned 50-1, almost twice as high as the Lean burn Honda engines used in the VX, HX, and other models.

With the price of diesel here about the same as regular gas, diesel has become a much more attractive option. I believe this was due to the legislation enacted a few years back that required the refiners to dramatically reduce the sulfer content of diesel fuel, which also helpd reduce emissions quite a bit. Lat year diesel here was $1 per gallon more than premium, as the refiners passed the cost of the sulfer reduction technology on to the consumer.

My favorite hybrid would be a diesel hydraulic configuration. I have a Kubota D600 that produces 16 HP at 1 gallon per hour of fuel. There are diesels that will beat that amount, but the practical limit of current diesels is about 20 HP per gallon per hour. In order to get to 100 MPG with no other hybrid system or hypermiling, you need to build a vehicle that can go 100 MPH on 20 HP, which is a very tall order to fill, and would require extreme aero and rolling resistance improvements.

Slightly OT but it does explain why a large V8 diesel can idle on the same volume of fuel as a much smaller gas engine. Diesels alos tned to idle at lower speeds, and AC use is a much smaller power drain on the diesel becasue of the already discussed compression energy requirements.

regards
gary

Nice explanation Gary. I think the new TDI 2.0 has 4 throttle butterflies, but they are used for EGR control and are not directly related to what the driver does with his right foot.

I'm having fun with my Sportwagen TDI. Fine driving car; just learning how to get best fuel economy out of it at 4K miles.

There are 4 flaps in the intake to control swirl of air to the cylinders. I believe it's for both emissions and power purposes. I'm glad to hear you're enjoying your Sportwagen, Dave. It was a fun car to drive when I got the chance :)

Another diesel advantage is they can take 15 psi boost on normal fuel( partly due to the running on 50/1 lean gary mentions). Spark motors start requiring higher octane and start dialing back the advance once boost is over 5 psi. In the USA I can't recall any boosted motor that actually got better mpg than a non boosted-but larger- version in the same vehicle. All the little turbo 4's are in little hot rods, and they get relatively poor mpg.

What is the actual peak combustion pressure of a 20/1 diesel with 15 psi? Gee with 20/1 compression you get to 3000 psi-15 psi boost 6000 psi- ignite it and where does that put peak pressure?? What is peak cc temp-1200 f or so-wow that would put peak pressure in the 15000 psi?? Hard to believe- but..
Charlie

I have to be honest. So of the reading at tdiclub is scary.

psyshack-

What reading - is it the quality control of those VWs?? I've heard-maybe here-that there wasn't any quality control-lotta' problems-until 2005 or so. Apparently the problems with various systems just continued year after year with no obvious effort to correct them?

Or do you mean the slight anti hybrid bias over there?
Some of them do get great mpg- not quite Prius(especially city) mpg, and certainly not old Insight mpg- but very good mpg.Not quite HCH(either) mpg either.Not Metro mpg either. Fun car by all accounts-when they are running right.

Charlie

psyshack-

What reading - is it the quality control of those VWs?? I've heard-maybe here-that there wasn't any quality control-lotta' problems-until 2005 or so. Apparently the problems with various systems just continued year after year with no obvious effort to correct them?

Or do you mean the slight anti hybrid bias over there?
Some of them do get great mpg- not quite Prius(especially city) mpg, and certainly not old Insight mpg- but very good mpg.Not quite HCH(either) mpg either.Not Metro mpg either. Fun car by all accounts-when they are running right.

Charlie

The mpg is good enough city or hwy. I don't do a lot of city driving over all. Mostly rural road and hwy. There seems to be some turbo problems, turbo control problems. Some of them seem to be caused by light driving and not blowing the turbo out thus keeping it clean. And then there is the always poor VW dealer service dept's.

I really did enjoy driving the one I drove,,, big time! Can't even compare it to the HCHII. The MZ3 would be the comparison for me. A tad bit more refined, did not handle as well as the 3, but close over all. Enough power to get out of it's own way. But more importantly power that could be used. Just a little grunt away from making a pass, pulled hills very well. TQ its a wonderful thing when not ruin by a AT tranny. The FE was just icing on the cake.

If they could make hybrids drive like this car it would be a major move in the right direction. And I feel more folks would get on the MPG, green bandwagon.

psyshack -- Glad to hear you like the last car I bought (well mine's a wagon, but close)

I know exactly what you mean when it comes to reading tdiclub can be scary. I've lurked around reading that site as well as vwvortex on and off for years. Like yourself I've owned several Japanese cars (including a Mazda3s kinda like you) and I have no delusions that my new VW well be as no-brainer reliable as those cars. However, there was nothing else in this price range as a wagon or suv that was nearly as fun to drive as this. Same thing with fuel economy, the only thing that was close with the utility this has is the Escape hybrid which seemed like a step up in price but a step down in other aspects, at least with the things that were important for me.

Its funny that some things kinda reminded you of your 3. That's my impression too. Obviously there are differences and areas where one does better than the other, and vice versa, but they both just seem to have the fun factor.

Do you know if there are decent places to service VW's and/or TDI's near you? I looked at the regional section on tdiclub and found that there was a couple great options very close to me. If there isn't anything close to you, it might not be the best car for you. I say this despite the fact it would be cool if you got one, as I'm sure you'd figure out good tips for with us, but I think its something you should consider. The more I read the more I think most of VW's poor reliability image is caused by the unfortunate fact that there are a lot of dealers that make the situation worse.

The more I read the more I think most of VW's poor reliability image is caused by the unfortunate fact that there are a lot of dealers that make the situation worse.
I feel that way too. VW dealers have satisfaction ratings near the bottom of the bunch. I know of one particular dealer not too far from here that does a good job. Everybody I talk to in the region covered by that dealer seems quite happy with their VW's. The same cannot be said for here, where our dealers are sometimes questionable in their work.

VWs are a blast to drive, but you do pay for it in maintenance. I believe a lot of what I read at tdiclub (except the predominant anti-hybrid BS). Once the car's been around a few years get used to there always being something wrong with it. I have no reason to believe the new ones will be any better. As long as I can remember, people get excited that the latest generation of VWs might be more dependable than the last, and every time they get marginally better but still disappointing.

Mostly minor stuff on the Golf TDI at the moment, although we have had to slap down about $2500 for an injector pump late last year. The left passenger window started getting stuck occasionally a few months ago and has since stopped working. The right rear seatback can't be released because the release broke when the seatbelt got stuck behind it. Also the lanyard holder on the $300 switchblade key (of which we have only ONE because we bought it used) has a gap in it, causing it to sometimes fall off key keyring, and my wife's come close to dropping her key down a drain a couple times already. I'm dreading the call when she finally loses the key, and we have to have it towed to a stealer AND wait a week for the expensive replacement key to get shipped in.

On the gas Jetta wagon it's also mostly just nuisance stuff. I've had an ongoing cooling system CEL since I bought the car that won't go away. The over-engineered cooling system is all gunked up because some idiot put stop-leak in it (before I bought it), and now I see why because the last few weeks I've started to have a slow leak and have to add a cup of coolant weekly or so. I've had the water pump replaced twice (second time was under warranty) and my non-stealership mechanic thinks the gunk may have had something to do with it. Now a month ago it started having driveability problems the first block or so when cold and it started throwing the dreaded P0102 code at the same time, so I guess I'll have to spring for a new MAF. Also the left rear window has gotten stuck a couple times, same as on the Golf. Normal maintenance issue but the shocks are starting to go -- but at least that gives me an opportunity to get the metalnerd lift kit installed and fix the stupidly low ground clearance. Blasted Europeans never leave paved roads, I guess.

But really, they are GREAT cars if you're willing to live with a few problems. They are a helluva lot of fun to drive and very well appointed for their class. The gas models are disappointing in FE, but at least I'm managing to average 32-33mpg in town in a car rated for 21mpg, and the TDI's mpg is untouchable: typically around 40-ish in town with my leadfoot wife driving, and 50-ish on roadtrips. I have gotten 54mpg on a trip, and pulled 60+mpg two years in a row at the Lacey, WA Fuel Economy rally. I know my wife doesn't EVER want to part with her Golf until it hits at least 300k, although I'd have gotten a Matrix or Fit instead of the Jetta it had been in the budget. At least the Jetta was cheap. If used TDI wagons weren't so insanely expensive we'd have gotten one of those instead of the Golf for her and to serve as the family roadtrip car, and a 5sp HCHI as a commuter car for me.

VWs are a blast to drive, but you do pay for it in maintenance.

I've been reading this site for a couple years and before that the driveaccord forum for a year or so. If I remember correctly if psyshack keeps this car about as long as he has the last few times he won't pay for maintenance since its covered for the first 3 years 36k and by then it will be time for something else.

Now, if you consider you have to go to a VW dealer to have that maintenance performed for free, and risk them doing something like overfilling it with oil as has been reported, you may have the opportunity cost associated with your time going to/from the dealer to correct the things they break.

I've been reading this site for a couple years and before that the driveaccord forum for a year or so. If I remember correctly if psyshack keeps this car about as long as he has the last few times he won't pay for maintenance since its covered for the first 3 years 36k and by then it will be time for something else.

Now, if you consider you have to go to a VW dealer to have that maintenance performed for free, and risk them doing something like overfilling it with oil as has been reported, you may have the opportunity cost associated with your time going to/from the dealer to correct the things they break.

You are right. I haven't kept a car over 4 years in the last ten years except the Ranger. The Ranger will be 9 years old very soon.

Maint. issue's are not a problem. I would never take the dealer up on there so called free maint. I take care of that myself.

I do have concerns about the Jetta. I question VW's over all ability to deliver a reliable car. Thus this site would have to have some money spent on there products. http://www.ross-tech.com/ The other is pricing. I will not pay MSRP or ABOVE to purchase a car. I will only pay a tad above invoice for the new hottest thing on the road. And prefer well into, if not all the hold back. Getting great deals up front is what allows me to trade down the road and not get hurt. Both of the VW dealer lots I've been on in the last week have been worse than any Yota dealer I've ever been around. I will hit the next VW sales person that tells me the Jetta has been Autobahn crash tested at 95 mph. I don't _ucking care. I tell them. Do not sell me the car. I don't need to be sold. Here is my number. Take it or leave it. Here's my card, I'm in sales. Meet my numbers and you can have me driving that new car off in less than a hour. You haven't a clue what a good car dealer is like until you have found one like my Honda dealer. Not a clue. To bad Honda has nothing I want except CR-Z. And I figure they will have it so screwed up it won't be worth buying.

I'm willing to wait for 2010 and see how the Jetta does on the road over all. And see how hungry the dealers get. They may have cars. But they are worthless unless somebody want's to buy them.

I will be around and have a job as long as I care to show up for work. Our year end was June 30th. Looks like we will have the best year ever in co. history for my dept. The rest of the co. is very healthy a long with almost doubling our territory a past rep sorely mismanaged. Just bought a new co. truck for when we need a big rig. I'm purchasing a new Laser Alignment system today. A new office should open in Little Rock with a new co. wide computer system. Plus bonuses come Oct. Bet I'm at my job longer than all the car sales people I deal with. :)

Jeff, do you have a Costco in your area? A Costco membership is a surefire way to get a car for below sticker. It's a no-negotiation situation from the buyer's perspective, except that it isn't a ripoff like Saturn's no-dicker stickers. And exact deal varies depending on the deal negotiated between Costco and the local dealer they've chosen for each make, but it's usually a fixed percentage or amount below sticker or above or below invoice, and usually a better deal than most people can negotiate on their own.

It also gives you negotiating clout elsewhere: When I bought my 2000 Outback the Costco-chosen Subie dealer didn't have what I wanted on the lot, so I went over to a competitor and flashed my Costco card anyway. They knew I'd get the Costco deal no matter what, so they matched it and I drove off the lot with a brand new Subaru stickered at $24k for just $21k.

Our experience talking to salespeople at other dealerships has been that although they hate it, most of them will grudgingly tell you they'll match the Costco deal if it comes to that.

Funny thing was while we were signing the paperwork on the Subaru, one of the sales guys walked in with a bunch of pizzas for all the customers. The guy looked us and said half-jokingly that these were only for customers that they made a profit on. I told that d1ck that if they weren't going to make money on it they wouldn't have sold us the car. No one held a gun to their heads. Hey, anytime you get such a good deal it ticks them off you know you've done something right.

I imagine that OK is probably more Sam's Club than Costco country -- does Sam's offer a similar buying service?

Jeff, do you have a Costco in your area? A Costco membership is a surefire way to get a car for below sticker. It's a no-negotiation situation from the buyer's perspective, except that it isn't a ripoff like Saturn's no-dicker stickers. And exact deal varies depending on the deal negotiated between Costco and the local dealer they've chosen for each make, but it's usually a fixed percentage or amount below sticker or above or below invoice, and usually a better deal than most people can negotiate on their own.

It also gives you negotiating clout elsewhere: When I bought my 2000 Outback the Costco-chosen Subie dealer didn't have what I wanted on the lot, so I went over to a competitor and flashed my Costco card anyway. They knew I'd get the Costco deal no matter what, so they matched it and I drove off the lot with a brand new Subaru stickered at $24k for just $21k.

Our experience talking to salespeople at other dealerships has been that although they hate it, most of them will grudgingly tell you they'll match the Costco deal if it comes to that.

Funny thing was while we were signing the paperwork on the Subaru, one of the sales guys walked in with a bunch of pizzas for all the customers. The guy looked us and said half-jokingly that these were only for customers that they made a profit on. I told that d1ck that if they weren't going to make money on it they wouldn't have sold us the car. No one held a gun to their heads. Hey, anytime you get such a good deal it ticks them off you know you've done something right.

I imagine that OK is probably more Sam's Club than Costco country -- does Sam's offer a similar buying service?

We have Sam's Club. No Costco here. My mother works for Costco in Phx. And checked into there service and did better on her own than Costco could do on her recent Versa purchase. It's a family trait.

I sell pumps, boilers, chillers, steam traps, controls and parts. I never sell anything at List price Except one sump pump co. we rep. does not give us any break on parts pricing. But it's rare for one of there pumps to break if it's sized and installed correct. Not uncommon to see them go 20 years with out being touched. Say a pump list at $10k I will go out at a .50. OTD $5k plus shipping and tax if applicale. That includes my face to face time, engineering, start up, tech support with parts and labor warrenty less the mech. seals. of which I will warrenty many times if your a good cust. And we get no warrenty labor cost back from the factory's. If we get into a bidding war over product from a rep from a diff. product line we can ask for and receive better multi's from the factory. More times than not we don't make a dime on a sale until warrenty is over. Then we make it back on parts. And even then parts are sold 25% to 30% below list price. And then on top of that I will provide full support and docs/insturctions to the cust. I will even rent you RO meters with doc's for balancing and trouble shooting. With a phone call I will bring the full power and benfit of full factory support right to the engineering level to a cust. Be it a $100 pump or steam trap, to a $100k sale. I work on straight salary with yearly incentive that is shared co. wide. with a very good benny package. We do not and will not work on a commission. Commission sales bring in employee greed. Bad engineering and a single mode way of looking at the cust. and your responceblity to the cust. ( take a car saleman and tech or service manager) And then the co. can always screw you on it with the swipe of a pen. Here the cust. is truley the most important part of the co.

For me a car sales person or sales manager is nothing more than a perfume counter sale person. I show them no mercy!

Jeff, do you have a Costco in your area? A Costco membership is a surefire way to get a car for below sticker. It's a no-negotiation situation from the buyer's perspective, except that it isn't a ripoff like Saturn's no-dicker stickers.

You've never seen Jeff negotiate. :eek:Let's just say that the next big $ car I buy, I'm buying Jeff a plane ticket & steak dinner for the family if he'll haggle for me. I'll still come out ahead.

^-- I'm inclined to agree and think I'd be wise to consider the same!!

VW's are good cars. My Dad's '00 Passat V6 4motion wagon, he says, is still the best car he's ever had, and I can't lie, it's one of the few modern cars I'd own, along with just about any VW tdi or a '94-'95 Mustang GT or SVT Cobra Convertible with a 5-speed.

VW's are good cars. My Dad's '00 Passat V6 4motion wagon, he says, is still the best car he's ever had, and I can't lie, it's one of the few modern cars I'd own, along with just about any VW tdi or a '94-'95 Mustang GT or SVT Cobra Convertible with a 5-speed.

I don't know about that. I just bought a $10k lazer system to align pumps and the lazer head failed fast. Within a hour of opening the box. And it's no more high tech than the lazer in a optical drive. The system is German and a pain in the ass.

If I buy a Jetta or Golf TDI I will work my best price. Then hit them for another $1500 I will have to spend to purchase diagnostic software and hardware.

While I fell in love with the Jetta I drove. I have now pulled my head out!

That's probably a smart move, Jeff.

On the other hand, if you change your mind and get one anyway I'll look forward to a ton of posts on your adventures, mods, and results! :D